Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: We've got lots and lots of things to talk about and to do today. Covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s. It's the best thing going today.
[00:00:18] Speaker A: Interviewing wrestlers, referees, authors and other media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: The cream, yeah, the cream of the crop. And now here's your host, Tony Richards.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: Hey, everybody. Welcome to another edition of Personalities, Territories, Towns and Buildings. I'm your host, Tony Richards and today I'm excited about my guest because he was the voice of Detroit's big time wrestling and was around Detroit wrestling for years and years. He's my good friend and welcome guest, Terry Sullivan. Terry, welcome to the show today.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: Thank you very much, Tony. It's a pleasure to be here. I've enjoyed our conversations leading up to this one. Looking forward to today?
[00:01:06] Speaker A: You bet, man. I am too. And you go back to a time similar to me, where the wrestling business was a lot different than it is today. And we get to now be the guys that sit around, talk about the good old days, you know, and tell people about the way things were before and all that kind of stuff. So I enjoy doing that.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: Yeah, we're the sort of the historians. It's our responsibility, I think, to leave something behind that lets people learn about how it was.
[00:01:38] Speaker A: Oh, man, those guys worked hard back in those days. And not that the guys don't work hard now, but it was a different kind of business back then.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: And so take, take me back to. How did you. I, I think I, I think I can imagine how this happened, but I want you to relate the story to me and our audience. How did you get involved in professional wrestling?
[00:02:02] Speaker B: Well, I think like a lot of people, I started off as a fan and I'm still a fan 50 some years later.
And I grew up near Toledo, Ohio, and there was wrestling every other Thursday night at the Toledo Sports Arena. And when I was, I used to bug various people before I got my driver's license to, to take me there. And I mean, to me it was one thing to watch it on television, but as you hear all, a lot of the announcers say, oh, it's one thing to watch it on tv, but you haven't experienced it until you've seen it live. And for me that was true.
And I think the second show I went to, there was a tag team match in the main event. It was the chic teaming with the student, who was a big masked guy from Detroit who was unmasked some Years later as George the Animal Steel. So you can imagine a tag team of the Chic and George Steele together. Man, this kid was hooked. So there I am sitting at Toledo Sports arena on top of the boards that covered the ice because it was a hockey arena. And man, I was just, I couldn't get enough of it. Started corresponding with a lot of fans around the country, joined fan clubs and one thing or another. And there were people from Detroit, some, some real hardcore fans that used to come down to Toledo and every Thursday night. And I got to know them and they knew some of the wrestlers and I got to know some of them in, in Toledo. They wrestlers would come out of the dressing room which would just small rooms and they would stand in this archway that looked out onto the main arena floor to watch the matches.
And that's how I got to know people. People would walk up to them and start to bug them and ask for autographs, one thing or another. But I found that the Heels were much more interesting and inherently more interesting, but much more open to just casual conversation with a little goof like me than the, the faces.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: I've heard people say that often and I, I kind of, that was an experience that I had too.
Why do you think that is?
[00:04:27] Speaker B: Maybe the faces are tired of all the, the, the people bugging them. Give me an autograph when you. Right. Whereas the Heels don't get it that much. I suppose if I had any intelligence and really bought into the, the, the, the characterization, I would have stayed really far away from him. Of course I, I, I be honest, I never would have gone anywhere near the Chic or Wild Bull Curry, although the chic used to. There was a stairwell that led up into the elevated seats right across from the, the heel dressing room. And he used to come up and he would watch at least some of every single match. And I never understood why he did that. I thought little kid in me thought well, he's scouting future opponents, right?
[00:05:18] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:05:18] Speaker B: I didn't realize that he was the boss man and he was keeping an eye on the people. The wrestlers so gradually got to know people and got to know some of the wrestlers and moved down to, moved to Cincinnati in 1969, went to college down there. And the promoter in Toledo introduced me to the promoter in Cincinnati. The promoter in Toledo was Martino Angelo, a wonderful old time worker of the 30s and 40s and 50s, maybe aging him just a little bit, but he introduced me to the Cincinnati promoter, Les Ruffin, who was another old time wrestler. Les used to work for Barnett in Indianapolis and now was working for the Chic, promoting Cincinnati and Dayton.
So Les had, I don't know, he, he had, he, he was really good about taking care of the younger people who were up and coming. And if he saw somebody, usually a wrestler, and in my case an announcer who seemed to have some promise, he would help him out. He would, in my case, he talked to the sheik, let him know who I was.
And actually even before that he started me announcing in day and I was like 1970, I was 19 years old.
[00:06:49] Speaker A: So you were doing the ring announcing?
[00:06:50] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
And shortly after that he got me and started me announcing in Cincinnati. And sometime around in there I, the sheik saw me. The sheik didn't come to Dayton all the time. Usually he was in Cincinnati, but it was a matter of probably a few months before the sheik saw me. And apparently he liked what he saw. And you know, I met him, was introduced to him not long after that. And then he said one night, we want you to come up to Detroit.
We're going to record TV up there. And he had his own TV mobile unit which he, he leased the truck and the equipment and he said we're going to. And at the same time he was going to record with the mobile unit at Cobo arena in Detroit, wanted me to ring announce there. And then at that time we also did television show. The next day, Sunday morning, we'd be up at Channel 20 in Walt Lake, Michigan, outside of Detroit and do two one hour shows as coble ran every other week. So we did the two shows which would run for the next two weeks and that's how it all started.
[00:08:05] Speaker A: Who was the television commentator for the show when you were there?
[00:08:11] Speaker B: Then I started it was Lord Athol Layton.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: I knew he did some of the Toronto stuff. Did they, did they do the same show for Toronto as they did Detroit or was that a separate show?
[00:08:22] Speaker B: Separate show, Yeah, I think they might have called it Maple Leaf Wrestling even back then on that. But that was taped in Hamilton at channel, I think Channel 11. Let me have some of my facts. A little askew, but yeah, they did a separate show there. Lord Leighton was, he was just an amazing guy.
Six, six, about 260 pounds, wrestler, slash commentator. And in Detroit he had main evented most all of the Detroit shows at the Olympia and the Cobo arena for years. Yeah, him against Fritz Von Erich against Dick the Bruiser Dukemuka, you know, all the foreign menaces of the day. Lord Layton would tackle.
He was from Australia, so he had the, the accent, very debonair.
[00:09:20] Speaker A: In fact, very, very articulate.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: Yes, he was. My mother said, told me one time she hated wrestling. So did my dad. But she told me Lord Layton is the only one who looks like he has a little bit of class.
[00:09:33] Speaker A: Yeah, he has a lot of class.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: Yeah, he did.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: And he was an amazing baby face too.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: Yes, he was. Yeah, he was. And I just idolized the guy. I mean, I, I did. And he was such a, such a kind, wonderful man. By this time he, he wasn't wrestling a full schedule.
He had cut back a little bit. But so he wouldn't wrestle every Kobo show, but he would all did, still did all the tv.
And every now and then, you know, there's something would come up with one of the heels, Killer Carl Cox was one of them or the, the chic. And then all of a sudden Lord Layton would be pulled back into action at the main event at the Global Arena.
So yeah, he, he was, he was just wonderful. But he would go to, he, he would take off for Australia and Jim Barnett was promoting there at the time. Every now and then he'd take off for anywhere from six weeks to six months and get back down to Australia and, and join in on a tour there.
So we had a couple of other professional broadcasters who were older than I was who did it before me, mainly the ring announcing in the smaller towns and then when Lord Leighton was gone, they would do step in for commentary. That was Bob Finnegan and Chuck Allen.
[00:10:58] Speaker A: And did any of these three guys Allen or Finnegan or Leighton, did they mentor you at all or help you along?
[00:11:06] Speaker B: Finnegan always did. Chuck, I don't think really cared for me too much and. Yeah, and because they used him a little less when I came in and I was a snot nosed punk and I don't, I don't blame him. Not, not a bit, you know, but, but Finnegan especially, you know, we were, we were really close and when I lived in Williamston, which is where the Sheik lived in Williamston, Michigan, where the office was, Bob and his family lived there, he had a couple of horses. He'd take me out riding the horses and. Yeah, so we had a great relationship.
[00:11:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great.
So what, what were you thinking? Like, had you ever even given any thought to being on television or was this.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Oh, heck, yeah. Yeah, that was my dream.
[00:11:55] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:11:56] Speaker B: And you know, but when I, when I really young, like early teens, I was very interested in broadcasting and what I wanted do was be a wrestling announcer. But I watched Lord Layton. And I thought, well, you have to be a wrestler to be a wrestling announcer. So that leaves me out. So I had an idea to do radio or television, but then when Bob Finnegan came in in 67, it's like, oh, my God, I actually have a chance to do something like that. And I set to set my mind to it, and, man, it was absolutely the dream come true.
[00:12:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I. When I started out with the show with you today, I said, I think I know kind of how this happened, because I had sort of the same aspirations if. If I wasn't going to be playing sports, I wanted to be a broadcaster.
And people asked me in later years, like, how did you get involved with broadcasting? How did you get into radio and television, this, that and the other? And I would just say I was just hanging around, you know, I just hung around. Like, I hung around the right people, and they got. They. They just sort of brought me into it, you know.
[00:13:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like with wrestlers, and a lot of times their wives would be there, so I'd sit out in the crowd with their wives and.
And then you get to meet the husband and. But, yeah, you get to know him and you become familiar with you. They ease up a little bit. Like, I had the stomper guy, Mitchell. I was really good friends with his wife Carol, and they actually invited me to their home once outside of Indianapolis. So, yeah, it could lead to some wonder.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: So how long. How long were you around before you actually had a conversation with or you exchanged any kind of vocal exchange with the Sheik?
[00:13:44] Speaker B: It was. It was a period of some months, I bet.
And we were in Cincinnati, Cincinnati Gardens one night in Les Ruffin, after the show was over, says, go outside and talk to the Sheik. He's in his car out front. He had this beautiful purple Cadillac with a white top.
It was Mark something. I forget which number it was. But with white interior and a telephone. This would have been in 69, 70.
And just Ortega, the mighty Ursus. Big Bullortega was his was driving him that night. Just also worked in the office.
So I went up to the window, and that's when he said, yeah, I want you to come to Kobo in two weeks. Whatever. Buy yourself a tux and I'll pay for it. And he said, by the way, if you ever tell anybody talk to me, I'll tear your tongue out.
Like, yeah, I could sort of see that might happen.
[00:14:45] Speaker A: Did anybody protect their gimmick more than the chic? I mean, he really did. I mean, he knew he knew where his money came from, right?
[00:14:53] Speaker B: I mean, yeah, yeah, he did. And he was. He was old school in that sense. I mean, in Williamston, his home, everybody knew him, or most everybody knew him. And he talked. He went into restaurants and would talk, but he wasn't really open with a lot of people. But it was a small town and he lived there forever. So he knew most of the folks, I'm sure, and was pretty open with them.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: I don't care who you are even today.
I mean, if you watched anything at all with him and you had maybe even 95% certainty that this was a show and not all on the up and up, you still were shaken a little bit when the sheet came around. Yeah, you're in the back of your mind, you're thinking, I don't know if this guy's like all there, you know what I mean?
[00:15:47] Speaker B: There weren't too many wrestlers who, when they would come out, the people would scatter.
The Sheik was one. Wild Bull Curry was one. I'm sure you've seen the Japanese tapes when they.
Various people come out and the fans scatter. Yeah, there was, there was a. Definitely some respect for, for him, the Sheik, especially Bull Curry too, because he was just nuts.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: Yeah. I think I told you the other day when we were talking. I remember in, in 74, 75, she came down to Tennessee and he had a match with Jackie Fargo that I saw as a kid on television.
And within two minutes, I mean, the whole thing lasted by seven minutes or so, you know, but within two minutes they're both bloody and. And fires being thrown and there's just utter chaos in the rain. I'm just like, holy cow.
And Jackie Fargo was the ultimate hero right down in that area, you know, And I'm like, man, is Fargo gonna be all right?
I mean, this guy is crazy.
[00:16:50] Speaker B: Oh, sure. Had you guys down there known about.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: The sheet just by magazines, I mean, just, just, you know, anybody that didn't wrestle in the area, the only way we had any idea who they were or anything about them was in the magazines. And my God, the chic was on the COVID of all these magazines. And. And he was always a mess, you know, and it was him and Abdullah or him and Bobo, you know, and they were both just look like they'd been in a car accident or something.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I remember wrestling world.
Lou Sahati was the. The publisher, the editor, whatever. His son is still involved with wrestling at the highest level these days. But Lou used to be come to Kobo and Have his photographer there taking various shots, but, yeah, I think the Sheik's old mangled, scarred forehead sold a.
[00:17:41] Speaker A: Lot of magazines, man, you. You. You got that right.
So you remember the date of your first show?
[00:17:49] Speaker B: No, I honestly don't. I. I remember very little about it. Remember the Stomp? It was in Dayton. Oh, yeah, it was in Dayton, definitely. And I remember Guy Mitchell was there, the Stomper.
I think he. Yes, he wrestled Chris Tolus that night. And I remember the Sheik wasn't there, but other than that, no, I don't. I have no idea.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: Do you remember the date or anything about your first television taping?
[00:18:14] Speaker B: No.
[00:18:15] Speaker A: No.
Well, what year was it, Terry?
[00:18:18] Speaker B: It was 1970. Yeah, it was 1970.
I. I suppose I could look up about an old body press, which was the. The problem.
[00:18:28] Speaker A: Just curious.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Yeah, isn't that something? I. I don't remember it.
[00:18:33] Speaker A: I mean, a lot of times those things are really impressed in someone, Right? As you remember your, you know. Gosh, I still remember my first date. I went on with a girl. You know what I mean? So I just. I was just curious about that. So, yeah, you were. You were doing the television. And I want to get into some things here, especially about 75 that you were involved in, but before we get there, I mean, you're doing the television program when the Chic and Dick the Bruiser on the Outs, Right?
[00:19:00] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: And tell me a little bit about that. Right, so Dick the Bruiser, he had been a big star for Barnett in Detroit, and then Barnett sold Indianapolis, or he didn't really sell it. The Bruiser ran opposition, and basically Barnett vacated the town, but he sold Detroit to the Chic. Right. And so Bruiser came in to try to run against the Chic in Detroit. Do I have that right?
[00:19:28] Speaker B: Yes, you do. 1971, Bruiser hooked up with a couple of people from the Olympia Stadium, which was the arena where wrestling used to run. The Fred Kohler day is the old awa, And.
And Barnett, I'm not sure if Barnett was in charge when they ran Olympia or not.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: I think they did run the Olympia. I think Barnett and Doyle, they ran the Olympia, Olympia.
[00:19:57] Speaker B: I think he sold to the chic in, like, 65 and yet. Yeah, but anyway, Chic in the Bruiser, Bruiser started running opposition at Olympia. These guys who ran Olympia, Lou Mariadis and I can't think of the other guy's name, but they were involved with Olympia and concessions and one thing or another, and they wanted wrestling, and the Sheik was tied up with Kobo. So they, they went with the Bruiser, and I'm sure Bruiser had no problem coming in there. And so they started the opposition, which ran through about 74, 74 ish.
74, 75.
And at one point, Bruiser never did all that well at Olympia. Kobo was out drawing him.
And, you know, the Sheik had a lot of help from the NWA at that point in time, bringing in people like Eddie Graham and Pat o' Connor and Cyclone Negro and a lot of the big names. I don't know how many people in Detroit had ever heard of some of these people, but they came in with the backing of the NWA. Of course, in St. Louis at the time, Sam Mushnick, the president of the nwa, continued to use Dick the Bruiser, and. Which was contrary to the bylaws of the nwa, Right, because they, you know, somebody whose opposition to one NWA promoter is opposition to. All right, so Persona non grata.
So Sam continued to use Bruiser for a while, but eventually then Bruiser was injured in the ring and was out of there for about a year and a half until about the time that things got settled between the Sheik and Dick the Bruiser. In the meantime, the Sheik started running opposite the Bruiser. In fact, he ran every Saturday night.
And Bruiser would usually be in every couple of weeks. And, and like I said, Kobo usually outdrew the Olympia by a considerable amount. In fact, I think there was only one show where Bruiser outdrew big time wrestling.
[00:22:11] Speaker A: And Kobo's just bigger than the Olympia. Right? I mean, larger capacity or about the same.
[00:22:16] Speaker B: Actually, it wasn't the. The Olympia was at 20,000 at least. There was a big old ancient barn that I think was built in the 30s. And Cobo was this beautiful, modern, air conditioned.
Olympia was not air conditioned. Kobo seated 12,500 for wrestling.
And it was just a beautiful new arena right in downtown Detroit. Olympia neighborhood was getting a little questionable.
Cars would get broken into. Yeah, Cobo was, I think, at least in terms of the building itself, the place to be.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: You know, a lot of times, Terry, this happens in all different kinds of businesses. But a lot of times when there's more than one, you know, if there's two or three and the product is good and all three of the offerings, it usually creates more customers, right, or more fans for that, whatever it is that you're doing. Was that the case in Detroit? Like, was wrestling really hot during those years when Bruiser and Sheik were going at.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: It was. And, you know, I Put the lineups that the Sheik presented before, during and even after Bruiser came in as being as good as any promotion of the country in terms of the caliber of the, the wrestlers on the card. And Bruiser was, in my opinion, the cards weren't all that great.
You know, he, it was, you had a couple of, you know, matches, the top matches with, you know, names Cowboy Bob, Ellis Von Rashke or Wilbur with his partner Horse Ernie Ladd. But then underneath that, man, it was nothing.
[00:24:05] Speaker A: Well, that was the strength of the nwa, right, is the fact that it had most of the wrestlers in the country that were quality wrestlers, were part of the membership. Right. So Bruiser was left with, as most promoters were who were not part of the nwa, they were left with whatever else they could, they could get.
[00:24:22] Speaker B: The NWA really only he, we only they only and added imported talent, I think, to a couple of shows after that, it was just the Detroit regulars.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: Yeah, and that's, that's usually the story, right? Yeah. When they kind of feel like they have, when the, when the incumbent kind of feels like they've got the war under control, well, then the, the imported stuff kind of stops.
[00:24:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But the chic always had fly ins like the Funks.
Tex Kensing initially, eventually came in and stayed for a long time. Furpo1 Johnny Valentine.
Was Johnny Valentine on the Sheik. In fact, I, one other quick note about my first time announcing a Kobo. I, I do remember that it was the Chic against Johnny Valentine and it was sold out. So here I am on my first night looking out at 12,500 people and.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: Said, holy crap, I want to ask you about that because, you know, the chic was constant motion and chaos for seven or eight minutes. And Johnny Valentine was the antithesis of that. He was super slow and methodical and he took his time and waited for the crowd to catch up with him psychologically. And also, how did those, how did those matches go? What were they like?
[00:25:45] Speaker B: Well, the quick matches from the Sheik were something that evolved over time going back to his heyday in the 60s and early 70s.
I, I was the timekeeper for a lot of 60 minute draws with him, but yeah, he would regularly go 15 or 20 minutes. But over time, I, I, I think that it seemed to him that, you know, he was, he got more heat going in, doing something really quick, pissing off the people, which was the goal and wanting to come back and see more.
But you know, like a lot of formulas, eventually that was his undoing.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: It worked for a long time. Though, I mean, that was the secret sauce for Detroit, wasn't it? That the fact that they had a heel that the fans wanted to see get his for a long, long time. They wanted to see him taken apart on television or at the arena or anywhere they possibly could get it. They wanted. They wanted the Sheik to get his comeuppance, right?
[00:26:49] Speaker B: Yep, absolutely. That was the thing.
[00:26:52] Speaker A: Now, going back to your comment about, and I think this is fascinating, and I think our listeners and viewers will think so too, but going back to the 20, 30 and 60 minute matches, could the Sheik work? I mean, could he wrestle?
[00:27:06] Speaker B: Yes, yeah, absolutely he could.
But again, his reputation was made with, you know, on savagery, on barbarism, literally. And, and that. That was how he made his. His. His money. So. But, yeah, he could wrestle and he did.
He did apply some holes. Like if you go back and you watch some of the matches that are out there from him from the 50s. Yeah, he can wrestle.
[00:27:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, he. The reason I knew that is because in my research for the. I'm working on a book about Dory Funk in West Texas, and he had. He had a great run there.
One of his first.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:27:49] Speaker A: Which brings me to another thing I wanted to bring up is a lot of people call him the Original Sheik, but he really wasn't the Original Sheik. Was. He. Wasn't there a Sheik before him?
[00:27:59] Speaker B: Sheikh Lawrence?
Yeah, he was out in California, I.
[00:28:05] Speaker A: Think, and they were even tag team partners for a little while, I think just at the tail end of the Original Sheik's career ending. And then Ed Farhead taking over as the Sheik.
[00:28:16] Speaker B: But it could be.
[00:28:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Well, he was out in West Texas. He had a great run in the town of El Paso, and then he had a lot of programs in Amarillo and Lubbock and some of the other. Other towns. And that formed a relationship with the Amarillo office that he kept for as long as he was in business. So. I know, I know they had, you know, a lot of longer matches back in the 59, 60, 61, 62 in that area.
[00:28:45] Speaker B: Was a princess with the Sheik then.
[00:28:47] Speaker A: Yes, I bet she was. She was. Yeah. I've seen clippings and newspaper accounts and photos of them together.
[00:28:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: That brings up something else, though, in regard to the Amarillo office. There was a heel manager in Amarillo that often was the arch enemy of Dory Funk Senior named Jack Kane.
And Jack Kane in 68, I think you and I decided it was. He moved from Amarillo to Detroit and started working for the Sheikh.
Tell everybody about Jack Kane.
[00:29:23] Speaker B: Jack had a hell of a mind for wrestling.
And I've met a lot of people like him, but they.
He came in as the booker for the Sheik and did a wonderful, wonderful job because he. He was there during the. The highest of the highs in the early late 60s to early 70s.
[00:29:47] Speaker A: And was he the booker during the Dick the Bruiser War period?
[00:29:51] Speaker B: Yes, he was. Although at that point in time, in the 70. Well, and later in the Bruisers run in Detroit, Jack was being pushed out in favor of the Sheik's oldest son, Eddie Jr.
[00:30:06] Speaker A: But plus, his time was probably coming to an end. I mean, that's a long stretch for 68 to 72.
[00:30:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. To be able to. To come up with that many ideas on a continual basis. Sure.
[00:30:18] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. Most. Most bookers, I mean, three years is an eternity.
[00:30:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Jack was also a good businessman. And he was also the front man for the Sheik.
Again, as a sheik keeping up his gimmick.
Occasionally you'd have to deal with buildings. You'd have to deal with television station executives, general managers, etc. So Jack would be the. The one who would go out there and do those actual dealings. And occasionally, if they. Jack was close to a contract with a certain station, let's say in Cincinnati. Well, Cincinnati Channel, when they got channel 12, they've been on WKR C, not P.
Right.
They've been on and off channel 12. But this would have been in 73. They were on channel 19, which was a great station in Detroit. But they wanted one of the big three or four, and channel 12 was one of those. So Jack had been laying the groundwork with the management there. And the closer was to actually bring in the sheik to meet with these people and to meet him. And of course, everybody knew of the chic.
[00:31:35] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:31:35] Speaker B: The general managers would be, of course. Can I have your autograph for my daughter? Right, yeah.
So, yeah, Jack was the front man. And it turned out a lot of. Some of the TV contracts were actually in Jack's name.
[00:31:51] Speaker A: And so Jack eventually. Does he get fired or does he quit the promotion or how does he. How does this whole opposition thing start out?
[00:32:02] Speaker B: Yeah, As I mentioned, I think Jack saw the handwriting on the wall. Jack used to have and understand that the. The booker receives a percentage of the. The town was, I'm gonna guess, 5%, let's say some place between 5 and 10%.
So Jack was with the chic booking cobo in Detroit, Toledo, Cincinnati, Canton.
And I Think those are the main ones. And then all of a sudden, Eddie Jr. Took over Toledo and took over Dayton and gradually was starting to take over Cincinnati. So Jack was sitting home. So Jack obviously wasn't too pleased with.
So.
[00:32:48] Speaker A: Well, that's. That's a way to keep it in the family too.
[00:32:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm gonna say that a lot of people knock Eddie Jr. But a lot of Eddie did really give the towns a kick in the ass.
But he did so through more of the. In fact, I heard him tell. I heard him when I was still a fan and was walking in Toledo. I heard him tell Curtis Iowakea that people don't want wrestling, they want brutality.
And that's what he's giving them. A lot more chair, a lot more blood. I mean, chair chairs in the ring.
[00:33:24] Speaker A: Also known in the wrestling business as hot shotting.
[00:33:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: Which. Which works for a short period of time, but ends up burning your town out, you know?
[00:33:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:33:35] Speaker A: Because people can only take that for so long and then it's just becomes normal, you know?
[00:33:40] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. You don't want to bring your kids to a place where the wrestlers aren't the only ones who are fighting. The fans are running too, and there's little riots here and there.
So we had that going on with Jack. There was some general discontent among the wrestlers regarding payoffs. Of course, I've never been paid enough in my life, in my career. I've always thought I deserved more.
[00:34:06] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:34:07] Speaker B: But the wrestlers did so and. And probably with some justification.
Again, in 73ish, the sheik started to lease Pedro Martinez's NWF territory and started running Cleveland and also into New York, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Utica. I don't know if he got into Schenectady, but all those towns. And. And here it is.
The talent from Detroit was, you know, we had now these horrendously long trips to New York State in amongst the. The regular Detroit territory. And the. The town was burnt out. The town. The towns were dead.
[00:34:58] Speaker A: I'll jump in. Let me jump in just for a second here, Terry. And you know, I don't begrudge anybody for living their lifestyle however they want to.
But you also got to keep in mind, I think, when you're a business owner and you've got a considerable amount of cash flow that's coming to you.
And the Sheik was very lavish in the way he lived, and he was very showy in the way that he lived. And you contrast that with a Jim Crockett senior who never drove anything other than a used car to wrestling shows because he didn't want the fans or the wrestlers that worked for him to think he was living too high on the hog when they weren't.
So I would imagine that the sheik's own Persona probably drove some of that discontent from some of the wrestlers when they saw him in this latest biggest Cadillac or his custom made suits, or if they had ever seen his home or anything like that, that probably added to their frustration that they might not be getting as big a piece of the pie as they should.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: It's very perceptive of you. And of course, you talked about his house. And his house, which was being built in 73, was a $750,000 mansion.
Now you go back to 73. God, how many millions of dollars would that house cost him these days? But y lavish, and it was.
I remember it cost them much more than they initially thought it would. I guess pretty much every construction project is like that. But yeah, I mean, this thing was just a beautiful, lavish, lavish home.
[00:36:47] Speaker A: I mean, on one hand, the guy deserves it, right? I mean, he took all the risk. He's the one that put up the initial, whatever it took to get to where he was, right? And he's. He's out there cutting himself and bleeding every night, you know, for. I mean, he. He has the right to do that, but when you do it, you got to realize that other people are looking at that. And that might have even been some of the things that were going through your mind when Jack Kane got in your head about, hey, let's go over here and I'll treat you better, you know?
[00:37:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And he. So he started planning. And I remember there were. There were six of us who initially contributed $5,000 a piece, allegedly.
And it was Killer Brooks in the world.
[00:37:39] Speaker A: Did you ever get five grand?
[00:37:41] Speaker B: Yes. Rich kid.
[00:37:43] Speaker A: But I mean, it had to be every dollar you had.
[00:37:45] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. And every dollar I didn't give them then I gave him a few months down the road, right?
So it was Killer Brooks, Ben justice, and these are all main eventers in the sheik's territory.
Louis Martinez G.
Guy by the name of John Medincia, who was JB Psycho, and he was in a couple of territories. He was also one half of the Skull brothers, mainly active in the Michigan, Ohio area. But he was involved. And let's see, he brought Rip Hawk in.
Chris Markoff came in.
And so anyway, make a long story short, everybody contributed their money. And Jack said, yes, the TVs are in my name. So we're gonna. As soon as we knock this off, we're gonna have TV and Canton, Dayton in Toledo. And then we're going to get all these other stations along the way. Because I've got the promoter in Canton, Vince Risco, who had agreed to come along with him. And they were trying to get the promoter in Toledo. He turned him down.
Les Rough and in Cincinnati turned him down. But eventually here we are, we've got this core.
They brought in some.
A number of other wrestlers from Florida and various places to fill out the cards.
And away we went.
Sadly, there was no funding other than what we initially kicked in. And how much of what we kicked in eventually went into somebody's pocket, I don't know. I feel fairly confident that that was the case.
We did have the. The three television stations initially never got Toledo, never got Detroit. Although Detroit wasn't really the ever a goal. I don't know why, because it was the chic's best town.
There just wasn't much to it there. There was a whole lot of. Whole lot of sizzle, but no steak.
[00:40:00] Speaker A: And it would have been if you. If, if it could have been done right.
This is a time where the Sheik is starting to actually be vulnerable.
You know, when Bruiser tried to go against him, he was probably at his strongest.
But at this time in 75, he's kind of losing his luster. And he started to decline.
I think somebody. I forget how many people I talked, talked to so many people. But I think the. The Toronto match with Andre the Giant was kind of the demarcation of his apex. Right. Like when he didn't put Andre over in Toronto, then people started to go, you know, I don't know about the Chic thing.
[00:40:43] Speaker B: You know, the same thing happened in Detroit, Andre, the same deal there. In fact, the Sheik slammed Andre the Giant in Detroit was a huge deal at the time. Nobody has ever slammed Andre the Giant. Well, except for last night in Kansas City, but we don't talk about that.
[00:41:01] Speaker A: Well, actually, you know, Harley Ray slammed him in Houston and. And I told somebody, I'm like, that was a huge. They're like, isn't that cool? Harley Ray slammed Andre. And I'm like, no, it's not like we shouldn't have done that. You know, I mean, yeah, the vulnerability.
[00:41:20] Speaker B: You know, was just so.
[00:41:22] Speaker A: Yeah, nobody, nobody should have slammed nor pinned the Giant ever.
[00:41:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, I totally agree.
And there really was no need to. There were 110 Ways to Get out of that match with the Sheik still holding on to the belts and not shoulders pinned.
[00:41:41] Speaker A: I mean, your crafty heel can always get DQ'd.
[00:41:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:44] Speaker A: I mean, you don't have to ruin the gimmick, but yeah, so it would have been a perfect time if Jack would have.
If he would have been a little bit as savvy as maybe he came across.
[00:42:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And we had Killer Brooks and Tony Marino, which was our main event. Thing was those guys had main evented all around the territory. Not probably for three years.
Yeah, three years by that point in time, and I mean, honest to gosh, most every town.
Yeah, I'm going to say every town had Marino vs Brooks over and over and over again. Just like the week against Bobo Brazil.
[00:42:27] Speaker A: And Killer Brooks went to, I think Killer Brooks in the middle of 75, he went to Amarillo and got a whole. I got a whole new career.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:34] Speaker A: You know, after being up there for three years.
[00:42:37] Speaker B: Right. And that's where he left. He left our little opposition thing. And so, yeah, the talent was, you know, overexposed. I think the talent that we had was overexposed. Could they have been rejuvenated? Perhaps.
But they weren't.
And you know, the Dayton wasn't drawing flies. Even with the tv. Canton wasn't doing all that well. We had some spot shows and spot shows you can always do. Okay, ours did, but you can't. There was just no money.
[00:43:12] Speaker A: Let me ask you this question about somebody else. There's a couple of people here that are long term, big time revenue generators. Like Bobo Brazil. Let me ask you about Bobo. Like, how was Bobo so popular for so long?
[00:43:30] Speaker B: He.
My gosh, that's a great question. I mean, he had everything. He had the size wasn't the world's greatest interview, but he had the size and the physique and, you know, he was the man who was put over as the.
Essentially the savior. This is the number one guy. This is the guy who is unbeatable.
[00:43:52] Speaker A: I mean, his sheik didn't put anybody over to the amount that he put Bobo over, did they? Did he?
[00:43:57] Speaker B: Correct. Yeah.
But yeah, I think I'm going to call him the Great White Hope, you know, to coin a phrase.
[00:44:05] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:44:06] Speaker B: He was like everybody's hero. He was the number one face and he was protected a great bit.
And we were so lucky to have him in Detroit because he lived in Benton harbor and you know, he was in and out of WWWF at the time, in and out of California, you know, on a weekly basis. You know, he would be in Walt Baltimore. I Think he main evented most, a lot, a lot of Baltimore shows throughout his tenure in, in that part of the country. But yeah, he, he was just the, the magic, the ace up our sleeve.
[00:44:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Because he went back to him time and time and time again.
[00:44:48] Speaker B: I don't know that he ever left. I don't think that they ever really were. Everybody says, oh, they were close friends and they were business friends. As far as personal friends, I don't know.
[00:45:00] Speaker A: Yeah, they were business associates and they knew, they knew what they did worked.
What about, what about Abdullah?
Sheik put Abdullah over a little bit too. I mean, you know, put the title on him and he didn't, he didn't put the title on to me, people, you know.
[00:45:19] Speaker B: No, he didn't. I think Abdullah, he didn't keep it very long, but yeah, Abdullah was from Windsor as I think a lot of people who were familiar with him know, and he got his start, came along, I think, a little bit after the Sheik did. But the sheik always accused Abdullah of stealing his gimmick because he had the pointy toes and the, the, the savage kind of presentation.
[00:45:45] Speaker A: I never put that, I never put that together.
Well, yeah, I mean, I just, as a fan, I never really, you know, I never thought of them as being similar, I guess. I don't know.
[00:45:56] Speaker B: And Abby never talked, you know, never did, Never spoke English on interviews.
[00:46:00] Speaker A: That's true.
[00:46:01] Speaker B: So there was some similarity.
[00:46:03] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, now that you bring it up. But just as a fan watching tv, I just never would have done that.
[00:46:10] Speaker B: You know, but the sheik, for a long time, you know, you had, you had people like Abdullah the Butcher. And I'm trying to think of the mad dog Vashon, who never came in. The sheik, never brought him in, never used him. And my thought was, because they're too similar and he didn't want to, you know, want somebody that was too much like him.
I don't know, maybe I'm nuts.
[00:46:33] Speaker A: Oh, no, it's, it's a good, good comparison. I, I'm, I'm glad you said something because I just didn't put that together. What about Bull Curry?
[00:46:41] Speaker B: Oh, Bull. One of my favorites of all time. You know, honest to gosh, I, I can remember the first time that he came into television and they, they were on Channel 9 out of Windsor, Ontario, which was a tremendously powerful station. That's the station they used to run Detroit for years and years and years.
And I had heard of Bul Curry through magazines and much like you had with the sheik, and the, the reputation that preceded Bull Curry was, you know, Sheik, like in terms of the, his craziness, his brutality and everything like that. And he came into Windsor and was doing it yelling and slobbering and just, you know, annihilating some poor guy in the, in, in the ring. And Lord Layton was the commentator and certainly not above getting physically involved. It didn't do it that much, but occasionally he would. And so here's Bull Curry running around after the match and picked up a stool from off camera and smashed his opponent with it. And Layton was going nuts and tried to push him away and the two of them squared off. And nothing happened at that point in time, but Bold made an indelible impression on this young kid. Yeah, when he came in, but he was again just, I think one of the best heels ever.
And he had a long tenure in Detroit in, in going back to the, the 30s and the 40s and 50s. And then he was gone for, for a while and then came back and pretty much stayed from the 60s on. I mean he'd be in and out, but you know, his son Fred, Flying Fred and Bull was very familiar with Detroit. So yeah, he became one of the, and he started off as a heel and then as the trajectory that most of the heels followed when they came in Detroit was eventually they would form a tag team combination with the Chicago and they would go through all the tag teams that the promoters would throw against them and eventually there would be a falling out.
[00:48:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:57] Speaker B: And that would lead to the chic against Wild Bull Curry. Oh my God, did that pop. Houses are everywhere in the territory. That was something unthinkable that the Sheik and Bull Curry would actually be going at it right here in our town.
So yeah, he turned face and was of course the little guy with the knockout punch little by little. I mean, he was probably 5, 10 and you know, 220 pounds. So he was not one of the typical larger guys in, in the territory, but man, he would, he would take care of business in the ring.
But I remember meeting him in the dressing room and being just enamored with him and what a nice fella he was. Really nice guy, old time kayfabe kind of a fella. But one night I was, when I was first starting just doing Dayton before Detroit tv, I started doing a couple of Friday night towns in northern Ohio. I come up from Cincinnati every weekend, do Mansfield or Sandusky, Ohio.
And one night I was in either one of those towns and Bull Curry asked, is anybody going back around Columbus. I said, well, I'm going back to Cincinnati. He says, you are? Could you give me a ride?
Sure, sure.
Now, Mansfield to Cincinnati isn't really a direct line through Columbus, but we made it. So that particular night, oh my God, what a, what a thrill that was for me to spend an hour and a half or so in the car with Wild Bull Curry.
[00:50:40] Speaker A: What was the schedule like on a weekly basis at that time?
[00:50:44] Speaker B: Well, we would start up. Monday was usually Dayton at the Hara Arena. During the day was. We would often do promos.
At one point in time we did them in a television studio in Toledo and which was sort of a central point for the Detroit guys. The two guys who lived in Toledo and Freddie and Columbus could come up eventually. Then after the sheet got his own, the mobile unit. He rented a warehouse space across the street from the office in Williamston and he constructed a television studio there. They parked the mobile unit inside. They had a blue wall against the backside where we did. And that's where we would do promos. So usually the crew would come up on Monday or whoever they needed.
Monday morning we would do promos Monday. Then everybody would go to Dayton. Tuesday sometimes was Cincinnati. Sometimes.
[00:51:39] Speaker A: Let me ask you a question about those promo sessions. So who was in charge of making sure the guys knew where they were going and what interview to do and who they were going to wrestle and all that. Who kept up with all that?
[00:51:51] Speaker B: Sheik or Eddie Jr.
[00:51:53] Speaker A: They were there for the promo sessions and they would say, okay, Terry, you're wrestling Bobo this Saturday in Cincinnati and here's the deal. And okay, all right.
[00:52:04] Speaker B: Usually the day before we would, we'd make our cue cards, just had the long cars that we would hang to the front of the camera so it appeared as though we were making eye contact. And that would be the next Kobo show or the next Dayton, Cincinnati show. And we did about.
I think we did. We had four 2 minute promos and one 3 minute 30 second promo for each of the towns that we did every Monday.
So it was a long haul, long day. Some days they didn't have. Some days they didn't have that many wrestlers come up. Some days it was just me or myself and Finnegan together and we'd interview each other. We were desperate.
[00:52:51] Speaker A: Yeah, but so you did that. So you did that in Dayton. So then Tuesday you were going to say you were going Cincinnati then, right?
[00:52:58] Speaker B: Tuesday. Sometimes with Cincinnati, oftentimes it was one of the Michigan towns like Battle Creek, Grand Rapids, Lansing or Kalamazoo. They would usually run once A month. Wednesday was Columbus or a spot show. Tuesdays were also spot shows because he had about 16 wrestlers full time and so, so he could run more than one town a night. Sure. And supplement with the, the mid card people, the, the so called enhancement talent.
Thursday was usually always Toledo. Toledo initially every other week. Eventually started running every week. Friday was, was Canton, Saturday was either Detroit or at some point in time Cincinnati and Sunday was Toronto.
Every other week where they were in Toronto.
Occasionally, occasionally after Kobo, usually after Kobo. Kobo was usually done around 11.
And we would stay and do promos for the next two weeks of Detroit TV and Lord Layton would stay while he was still around and, and host those. But we actually had two weekly shows that we produced. We had Big Time Wrestling which was the so called A show. And that was the show that was recorded in Detroit at cobo. But since we had the mobile unit, we would take that on the road and record shows, the B show from Toledo, Dayton, Canton, wherever, Cincinnati, wherever. So then we had in Detroit and Cincinnati we had two shows every week on two different television stations. What initiated that was the TV stations didn't want to air the same show.
So we gave them two shows. We have Big Time Wrestling which aired on one station. And we had Worldwide Wrestling named after Worldwide Sports, the corporate entity that would air on the. The second station in Cincinnati or, or Detroit and would air in some of the other towns as well.
[00:55:09] Speaker A: And were those, were those A towns? Were they producing enough revenue to have those two shows? I mean I could see that if, that if they're.
Yeah, ideally. Right.
[00:55:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But it was an opportunity to be seen by more, more people every week.
[00:55:26] Speaker A: Right.
[00:55:26] Speaker B: And, and the A show at the time in Detroit.
And this is I think one of the big dominoes that fell that started the decline of Big Time Wrestling which started, which continued over the next couple of years.
In 1973, four we were on Channel 50 in Detroit, one of the Kaiser stations.
And this thing was a monster in terms of power. It hit the entire state of Michigan. It came down into Ohio, hit a lot of Ontario. And this was a mofo of a station. And the second station that we had, Geez, oh Pete's was like a 100 watt light bulb. It was channel 62 was not even. You couldn't even pick it up in some areas of Detroit proper, much less the suburbs. It was a weak station, channel 62, way on the upper right hand side of the dial where a lot of people never went right or went above 50. Used to have Your little UHF tuner that would tune to get up there to channel 62, which.
[00:56:47] Speaker A: And for those listening who don't go back to these days, you had the VHF stations that went from channel two to channel 13, and then you had UHF, everything above 13. And there were usually two different dials on your TV, right?
[00:57:03] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Yeah.
[00:57:04] Speaker A: And that was way on up there, 62.
[00:57:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
And at one point in time, she lost channel 50. I'm sure it was a money thing. Whether they raised their price or whether.
I don't know. I wasn't in on those meetings. I was around and remember very clearly thinking, oh, man.
[00:57:24] Speaker A: And I tell you, man, wrestling built a lot of those UHF stations in those days.
[00:57:28] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. As UHF stations are on the air now, they need programming. And here's wrestling, which was always drew a decent amount of eyes.
[00:57:38] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:57:40] Speaker B: So it was a godsend to wrestling promoters and to TV stations.
[00:57:44] Speaker A: Oh, UHF stations. I mean, they had an old movie package and wrestling. They, they, they were on cloud nine, man. They were on cloud nine. I remember we had one in Paducah, which leads me to a question I was going to ask you. But we had one in Paducah, channel 29, which was WDXR. I think they went on in 1969 and in 72. That was when I first started noticing wrestling, because I love Channel 29 because they had a bunch of the old science fiction movies. They had a bunch of the old syndicated Batman and some of that kind of stuff. And I was just glad.
Oh, yeah, Roller. They had roller derby. And I was just glued to that station, you know, as a kid. And they had, Phil golden, had a, had an independent promotion, which now in later years maybe we find out Roy Welch was actually behind that too. But anyway, he was part of Roy's family.
But, but anyway, because for years we always thought they were going up against Roy and Nick Gulas, you know, But I kind of think Roy was doing both of them, you know, but, but anyway, they closed in 74, and there was a guy there in Paducah that wrestled for Phil golden, name Angelo Poffo.
Oh, sure. Angelo goes back years in Ohio. Right. He worked for Barnett when Barnett was in Cincinnati. And so his son is with him here in 75. Lanny, who I first saw on Channel 29, is in 73, 74, and they're the tag champions. Did you have anything to do with the PAFOs when they were there?
[00:59:24] Speaker B: Well, actually, they came in during the opposition. I mentioned all those names that went opposite and boom, one day they're there, the next day they're not.
The Sheikh had to fill up his cards, so he brought in Angelo and Lanny, what tremendous tag team they were. Put the title them.
[00:59:43] Speaker A: And they wrestled as heels, right? They wrestled his.
[00:59:46] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:59:47] Speaker A: And then I think they turned baby face later in 75. But they had. Saul Weingroth was their manager.
[00:59:54] Speaker B: Yeah, he was their manager. And Randy came in with him, Randy Poffo. And was just starting out at that point in time, and so got to meet him and everything. And yeah, that was something. Let me ask you something about one of the announcers that we had who came from your neck of the woods. Buzz Benson.
[01:00:11] Speaker A: Buzz Benson. You bet. He was from Nashville.
[01:00:14] Speaker B: Yeah, he came up and started working with us, and the sheik sent him to New York to try to, you know, get that territory going, which was a fool's task because it never happened. Yeah, Buzz was. He was a cool guy.
[01:00:28] Speaker A: Yeah, Buzz did Phil golden show in the. In Paducah. And then when that. That show closed or when that promotion closed, he went to Nashville for a while. And then I did. Now that you mentioned that, I did know he did come up there and do some stuff. But Buzz was good guy. Yeah, but Buzz was good. So. So Fast forward to 1979. Angelo Poffo opens up a promotion in Lexington, Kentucky, named icw. And now Randy is five years older or four years older, and now he's Randy Savage, and he's doing the. Oh, yeah. You know, and I'm just like, thinking this is the coolest thing in the world because I'm a sophomore in high school, and me and my best friends are glued to this show every Friday night on television.
I got no idea at this time that that all came from a guy named Pampiro Furpo.
[01:01:21] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[01:01:22] Speaker A: I mean, I didn't know that at the time. Right. Because we thinking that Randy Savage is an original, you know, and, you know, I just didn't even know anything about Pampiro Furpo.
I mean, I don't even remember seeing him in magazines or anything. But he was huge up up there, wasn't he?
[01:01:39] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Yeah, he. He came in as a heel and, you know, but came in like. Like you say, was in the. Probably 72 or 73. So he was a relative late comer to the party. But still to this day is one of the names she, Bobo, Brazil, Pampero Furpo. He made a hell of an impression on people. Yeah, he really did. He.
[01:02:05] Speaker A: He had such a reputation in Hawaii and out west.
But then he came in there in the early 70s, you know, and.
[01:02:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yep.
[01:02:14] Speaker A: And Randy just idolized him. And so when he became Randy Savage, he took a lot of his gimmick, you know, and I just didn't know that at the time.
[01:02:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And Randy eventually came back as Randy Savage and he was starting to gain some national notoriety. Had to be in at least in part from the magazines, maybe solely from the magazines. But yeah, he came into Detroit and had a couple of matches with the Chic on top, a great matches. The Sheik worked his ass off with Randy, believe me.
[01:02:47] Speaker A: You know, in the. Terry, in the one thing I was going to give the credit to the Chic for as well, and I'm interested in your thoughts on this. But in the, in the 50s and in the 60s, most wrestling cards were three to five matches.
[01:03:04] Speaker B: Right.
[01:03:04] Speaker A: But in the early 70s, was the sheik, wasn't he one of the first ones to have anywhere from seven to nine matches on a card?
[01:03:11] Speaker B: Well, we had 21 one time.
[01:03:13] Speaker A: Oh my gosh.
Well, I mean, I know Toronto, you know, at Maple leaf, they had 10, 11 matches on a regular basis, but they ran, they ran twice a month, you know.
[01:03:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, he, he, we regularly had probably 10 to 12 matches at Kobo. And it just gradually started working up. Like you get some of the body presses from the late, from the mid-60s, there's like seven, eight matches, which was.
[01:03:43] Speaker A: That's a lot.
[01:03:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But then it just started creeping up a little bit. And you know, these were solid workers too.
A lot of the people guys were, I mean, he was bringing guys in from Toronto, from Montreal. The Rougeaus came in, few of the others from up there, plus the fly ins like Furpo, Tex, people like that.
So yeah, it was, it was quite a happening.
[01:04:09] Speaker A: Did that cause any of that consternation with the other wrestlers? Like, did they think, well, if there was, you know, five or six less guys here, I'd be making a little bit more money?
[01:04:20] Speaker B: I'm sure it did. I, I can't honestly say that I.
[01:04:22] Speaker A: Heard, I was just curious.
[01:04:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it totally makes sense. They didn't talk. The boys didn't open up to me a whole lot. I was, I wasn't exactly considered a stooge, I don't think.
[01:04:32] Speaker A: No, but you had some office on you, you know.
[01:04:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I was office. So I didn't get too much, but I saw a lot that, that I could have gone back to the office with and, and, and gotten some folks in some trouble. But not my style.
[01:04:48] Speaker A: Well, before I let you go, and you've been great with your time, very generous. I'm just kind of always curious about the behind the scenes kind of stuff. Like tell me a little bit about the office. Like how did it operate when you were there? Because you worked there in the back area, Right. You were an employee.
[01:05:07] Speaker B: I was, yeah. Full time employee.
[01:05:09] Speaker A: How many employees were there? What did they do? How did the office. Office work?
[01:05:13] Speaker B: Well, the office at one point in time was in the sheik's house, the back end of his house.
[01:05:18] Speaker A: That makes sense.
[01:05:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And then he leased a storefront in Williamston and had. This wasn't a huge office, but I think there were six or seven of us in the office and most everybody in, in some capacity or another was working on promoting different towns. Like we had Mike Colonis, who was a worker back in the 40s and 50s, who did a lot of the Michigan towns, a lot of the spot shows. Lou Klein, Remember Lou Klein?
[01:05:51] Speaker A: Oh, of course, yeah. A lot of guys trained at his gym.
[01:05:54] Speaker B: Sure, yeah.
Lou wasn't in the office, but he was in Detroit. But he ran a lot of the spot shows and I'm sure made a hell of a lot of money off of those spot shows too. Just Ortega was in the office doing the same thing, working some shows. Jack Kane was in the office.
Who else? When I started in, In June of 73, I was the first desk inside of the door. And my job was to write the stories for the body press.
And I had the ability to promote any town that I wanted to promote. As far as spot shows are concerned, I couldn't take over Detroit or, or Lansing. But if I wanted to hook up with an athletic boosters club somewhere or let's go in on my own and promote a town, I had the luxury to do that. And I, I did do that. And he paid me 5% and some. There were some weeks I made more off of the spot shows than I did off my regular.
[01:07:00] Speaker A: I'm sure you did.
[01:07:01] Speaker B: I mean, sure, it was a tremendous opportunity.
[01:07:03] Speaker A: I mean, if you had energy and you were. I mean, if you were enthusiastic and all, I mean, it was a great way to make a little money.
[01:07:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Lou Klein, we promoted Lou on television. If you want to set up a show, get in touch with Lou Klein. But a lot of people would call the office and they were from Clyde, Ohio, or that was one of them. A call that I actually answered and you know, I tell the sheik or his wife Joyce, I got a call from Clyde, they want to run a show. And he would say, okay, go ahead, run with it if you want to. Or would say give it to so and so somebody else.
[01:07:42] Speaker A: If somebody else had run that town before, I guess.
[01:07:45] Speaker B: Yeah, but yeah, it was my job. One of my jobs was to keep people away from the sheik who didn't have any business talking to him. Yeah, you get some marks who would call every now, hey, can I talk to the sheik?
Sorry, he's not here. Yeah, or you get.
And I had a pretty good idea. As time went on, there were some people that he didn't, just didn't choose to speak with and they were wrestlers and, and you know, often not all that great wrestlers who were looking to get booked and you know, and you know, send your, send your pictures and later on send your tape and maybe we'll get back with you. But yeah, it was my job to keep him. Or one day he, I remember he said, Find Vince McMahon for me.
This would have been Vincent J.
[01:08:34] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah, Senior, yeah.
[01:08:36] Speaker B: And there we had a Rolodex and I pulled Vince McMahon out of the Rolodex.
How am I going to find this guy? But there were like eight or nine phone numbers. His place in Florida, his place in, in the east coast, wherever he lives.
Tuesday in Hamburg, Pennsylvania, Wednesday. And what was the other town that they taped and they taped on Tuesdays and Wednesdays in Hamburg somewhere else. So this happened to be a Tuesday. So he was in Hamburg. And here's the, the number. I called the number and Vince McMahon would answer. I'd say, hang on for the chic, please.
[01:09:12] Speaker A: That's great.
[01:09:13] Speaker B: That was crazy. Yeah, so I used to talk to a lot of the guys like that and, and then there were some of them who would call and they want me to get tickets for him for, for Kobo or something. And I usually do that.
[01:09:25] Speaker A: And his wife worked in the office too, right? Joyce work in the office too?
[01:09:30] Speaker B: Joyce was there, Yep. The she's office. The chic and Joyce were there and they weren't there all the time, but usually every day one or both would be in for at least a while. The sheik was still on the road to some degree, so he, he'd be gone now and then.
And then we had Joyce's sister in law, Diane Fleecer, who was the, the bookkeeper.
And they also had a CPA in Detroit who had did the heavy lifting for him, including doing all the paperwork for people who needed visas, both in the sheik's territory and elsewhere. The Sheikh Just for some reason, was a guy who would do this and usually wouldn't charge to. To take care of it.
[01:10:16] Speaker A: Nice.
[01:10:16] Speaker B: And then nephew. Well, the sheik's son Eddie had a desk there, and he was usually in most days. And the sheik's nephew Mike, who later became a wrestler, was the videotape guy. There's this small little videotape room, and Mike was in charge of making sure that the tapes got to the various towns they were supposed to be at. Every week, something would come in.
We used to ship a lot of stuff by Greyhound at that point in time. So he'd go to the Greyhound station, pick up a tape, send it back out somewhere.
[01:10:53] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, when you think back on it, I mean, there were just so many things going on that we did the old way, you know, but. But it ran like clockwork. I mean, it was set up. It was set up to. And everybody just maintained their little cog right of the machine.
[01:11:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
So that. That was the way. That was the way it worked. I think it was. It. It worked pretty well. And he had a wrestling ring in the basement, too. And I can remember Killer Brooks and the Sheik banging around down there with Mike, the nephew.
[01:11:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. Well, Terry, thank you so much for joining me today. I mean, this is. This has been fantastic. I'd like for you to come back sometime and we'll. We'll go through some more things related to Detroit wrestling. But this has been a wonderful time today. Thank you for sharing all your experiences with us.
[01:11:41] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. I. I never get tired of talking about wrestling, as you know.
[01:11:46] Speaker A: Oh, well, hey, you got. You got a partner that'll talk to you about it anytime here. So thanks for tuning in to the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. Tune in for another great episode next week, interviewing wrestlers, referees, and media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling.
[01:12:06] Speaker B: Great.
[01:12:07] Speaker A: We'll release a new episode soon.
[01:12:09] Speaker B: Don't you dare miss it.
