Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: All right, all right. We're live from 304 Studios in Jonesboro, Arkansas. This is an STS pod dot club production. I'm BT and right over there, man, where the hell you been? It's Gene Jackson.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: I. I've been waiting on you. I don't know, I guess maybe I clicked on the wrong link or something.
[00:00:23] Speaker C: Man.
[00:00:23] Speaker A: It's been years, brother. It's been years. It's been actually two years. We sat down and released the episode in May the 18th, 2021. You were part of all episodes.
Memphis in May, which was the fourth annual where we did Saint I don't know if you remember this Saint Valentine's Massacre, because it was in Memphis. So we reviewed it and we answered. Was it really that good? And that's what we're going to do today. Real quick, let me get over some information and some business. Take a look at Patreon, because today Jean doesn't even know this yet. But when we go to Patreon, Gan and I are going to talk about something that we never talk about on STS POD Club. It's kind of taboo to be talking about this subject, so it should be really fun.
And also subscribe. We got a big prize package. It's all Memphis wrestling merchandise. There's a jury of the King of Lawler, Funko Pop. There's even a Ric Flair. Remember he did one of the most awesome angles ever in Memphis. A Ric Flair comic book, all kinds of fun stuff. Stspod Club. The right hand corner. In the right hand corner. Go over there and hit link of all links. Subscribe to Patreon or you could be a Facebook friend. You can do a little bit of everything right there.
Gene, are you doing anything wrestling wise anymore?
[00:01:43] Speaker B: Did you get me with one of those? You didn't know I was recording bits again?
Kind of, kind of, sort of. Not really.
You know, we've dropped the Cheap Heat podcast for a variety of reasons. But you know, I'm. I'm all into stand up now and I've gotten together with some friends. Delbert Jenkins, Buck Jenkins, cousin, also known as Steve Pleasing in the wrestling world.
Wes Sears, a huge wrestling fan and friend of mine from around the area. And Shane Knowles, professional wrestler and longtime promoter of Peach State Wrestling. We have come together and formed Main Event Comedy.
We do shows the third Saturday of every month at Anniston. We're starting to branch out and do shows in other places now, but we have converted everything that was previously cheap. Eat TV is now main event comedy. We have YouTube channel. We have Facebook, as you can see right below my name.
And a lot of good stuff coming up there through main event comedy. So please check it out, follow us and have a laugh or two.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: It's. It's really good. I follow you on TikTok and watch the videos there.
I try to watch at least you know, every new stuff, the new ones that you put out. My TikTok following is not that good, but I get a ton of response off of reels or YouTube's pretty good too, when it comes to the small videos. But I love the idea of being able to just tell a joke, listen to the joke, get on with it just the same way I do all the other stuff.
[00:03:11] Speaker B: We had a real recently, real quick for you because you got reels. We had a reel where me and Delbert and Xanders had. Did commentary over like a really bad out Alabama wrestling show.
And two guys were trying to do a.
A spot. Not really sure to this day what they were trying to do, but they kept whipping each other back and forth and screwing.
[00:03:34] Speaker A: I saw that. I saw that.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: Got over 40,000 views. Somebody shared it on the call to Cornet and Cult of K Fav.
And it's got a few. It's got a few thousand views in a two or three different places. But on the Facebook reels, yeah, last time I checked, it's got like 43,000 views.
[00:03:51] Speaker A: You went viral, man. You went viral with that one.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: Pretty cool.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: I thought that. That's awesome. Yeah, that's really awesome. It's really scary that we see that many people listening are touching our stuff. It's kind of crazy and it's also.
[00:04:05] Speaker B: Kind of upsetting that if you put something of bad wrestling, it will get shared around. But you can put, hey, this is the best match I've seen in two years of some really talented people on something local.
100 views?
[00:04:19] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Very much so. Very much so.
All right, we're here today and we're going to talk about. Was it really that good? And I remember this angle with the snowman. I remember it just being one of those things where you're watching Memphis wrestling and he walks out and you're kind of in shock. I mean, he's been. The snowman had been in Memphis before.
The killer was his gimmick then. And Kenny D. Do you know anything about Kenny D? So I actually like Kenny a lot.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: I. I just. I just remember him being, you know, around. But I. And that's one of the guys that I've never really, in all my years since of studying all this, I've never really gotten any insight on him of kind of who he was or how he came to be a part of any of it.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: I went to one of the old message boards, and no one really had any kind of information, even back in the day, about him. I always like Kenny D. He'd say something like, don't worry about it, when it. When D. What D stood for, and stuff like that. But he managed the killer. And so who is the Snowman Killer with the mask? And he.
The killer actually left Memphis. Did he leave Memphis then go to Mid South? Did Bill Watts see him then?
[00:05:39] Speaker B: I'm trying to think of what the time frame on the killer was. I'm thinking Mid south had to been first because Midsole was.
[00:05:45] Speaker A: Yeah, the killer was in 86. He came in.
[00:05:48] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Because Snowman in Mid south would have been, because, you know, his big match is an 85.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: 85 against Jake with Muhammad Ali in his corner and all that jazz. So, yeah, it was definitely before.
[00:06:01] Speaker A: And so Bill Watts saw this guy, this big, muscular black guy, and I'm gonna. I'm probably gonna dell into this a little bit. Ain't no little bit to it, because that's what this whole angle is about.
And I want to thank Braino Lasto, who's our Patreon member. He's the one that asked what y' all think about the Snowman.
But he saw this big guy, and he was trying to find somebody to take JYD's place, right?
[00:06:27] Speaker B: Yeah. There was that whole parade of guys that JYD went to wwf. And Bill Watts is like, we gotta have another top black wrestler again, you know? And so, you know, they had Doug and they had some top stars, but he wanted to fill that void.
And he tried it with Snowman, he tried it with Brick House Brown. And, you know, Butch Reed had been too big of a heel there. And Snowman came along, and, I mean, he was decent, but he was not going to be junkyard dog and especially not in the South, New Orleans, and, you know, where he had just came from. But he. He did achieve some notoriety there and got over to some degree. But he wasn't gonna be the top draw, that jyd.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: No, no. And who was that was the question. I don't think. I think.
I don't think Watts really understood that. He tried to replace JYD with another black wrestler. That's what it was all about. A black wrestler with some charisma. And he's wanting to try to get another black wrestler over. I don't think you understood it really. It did have something to do with JYD being black, but not a lot. I mean, I was a huge JYD fan. I talked to K Tumor about this. I think JYD was one of those guys. It didn't matter what color he was. He had so many fans from everywhere and just a huge. And there was. There's not many people like that. So it wasn't going to be so easy to replace him.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: I don't think people nowadays can really understand or appreciate, like in the 80s, kind of where things were on, you know, race relations and things like that. But, like, I think he's one of the first, you know, black wrestlers to really transcend. And if you go back and watch, whether you watch Mid south, uw, you know, Mid south or WWF or any of that, from the time when he come down the aisle, everybody was on their feet. It wasn't just like, hey, all the black fans and a handful of white fans. Like, no, everybody loved that guy. And he was God in New Orleans, you know. So, yeah, I think he was one of the first, you know, black wrestlers that really, you know, it didn't matter. He, he. It was him. It was about him and his charisma, that gimmick, his music and all that.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Yeah, you would go replace him with.
[00:08:43] Speaker B: No and I think fans, but you're not. Even though there really wasn't smart fans.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: Oh yeah.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: In that day, I think even those fans at the time, after a couple of tries, they were like, he just wants us to cheer this guy because he's black. Like.
[00:08:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:08:56] Speaker B: He's just trying to fill a void here. And they caught on to it and I think they kind of rejected it. Like you see happen with WWE baby faces in recent years, like the long, the long time it took him to finally warm up the Roman Reigns as those things, like, oh, we're not just going to cheer the guy because he's.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: Black because you or you told us to. We're not going to do it.
That people.
And I'm older than you, but people would not understand, especially being from the South. And let's. I mean, I know y' all might not be able to see this because you're not watching the video, but. But Gene and I are white. Gina. I know that's a huge, huge shot.
[00:09:32] Speaker B: Well, if we're coming out, then, yeah.
Talked about or really admitted, but yeah, I mean, if we're just to out ourselves here on.
On podcast. Yes, I am.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: And we, we really We. I. I want to say this, Gene. I've said this before in a group of whoever. I do not know the problems that a black male, a black female, would go through in the south during the 80s. None of that stuff. I don't know. I understand it to a certain extent, but I can't. Here's the deal. At. At that point, even me as a kid going to wrestling in the early 80s, I went to a place in blah, Arkansas. And the reason I bring this up, because I want you. And when we watch this interview in this angle, you're gonna know why I keep bringing this up. Because it's. That's what it's about. It starts out about race and.
But when I went to Blival, there was the ringside seats, there was bleachers buff, but kind of behind the ringside sees bleachers over here. But there was a section over here for all the black people.
They.
They weren't. I mean, I don't know. They got General Mission tickets, and they sat over here. They never sat in ringside. They never did anything. Also, at my high school, during pep rallies or anything that the parents had to come, there was a section of the gym that only black people sit in.
So did you see a lot of that? And now this is the 80s. This is 81, 82, 83, 84. During that time, I grew up in.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: A town with a very large black population. It was almost like they were.
You know, segregation wasn't still a literal thing, but it's like they just kind of. People kind of stuck to that, you know. And, like, you know, when I was in high school, like, if, you know, if a black person, a white person dated, it was. It was all. There was news all over town. Like, you know, it was. It was. It was almost gonna be in the paper that week. Like, it was. I mean, people don't realize. For all the talk people say about, you know, race relations and issues we've had in the last 10 years, it's nothing compared to what it was back then. And so that's because that, you know, mindset, especially in the south, was still kind of there, even if it was kind of everybody's own choosing.
That's why a guy like junkyard dog, who people was just, like, you know, reacting to, you know, like I say, from those different sections, they got the same. He got the same reaction for every section. It was pretty amazing to see. And I'm sure for somebody like Watts was kind of like, wow, how did that even happen? And his mind's like, okay, well, all I got to do is push a black guy, just like I do the white guy, and he's gonna get the same reaction. And then turns out, no, that's. That's not necessarily true.
But, yeah, you're right.
If you. This is really. I don't want to get ahead of anything, but this is a strange angle to go back and watch, because for context, this is 1990, when Snowman returns, and this angle happens on television that you didn't have the Internet. You had a very, very minute section of smart fans who read dirt sheets, who really.
[00:12:46] Speaker A: And I was part of that.
[00:12:47] Speaker B: So we're looking at those guys.
[00:12:49] Speaker A: We're looking at.
[00:12:50] Speaker B: There were people that are like, I know this ain't real, but they didn't know how or why or any of that. So the way this all transpired, to go back and watch it now, being my age, knowing that I saw it back then, thinking about how I felt about it then compared to what I know now, it's a very, very bizarre angle, how they booked it, because it was almost catering to smart fans, because it's like they did everything down to the matches. They had a certain way very different than any of the work stuff.
And it felt like they were trying to make you feel like, oh, this is real. This isn't your normal wrestling stuff. And that's just something they didn't do back then.
[00:13:29] Speaker A: You're right. I never thought about that. But they really did that. They were doing this angle you, like you said, kind of tailored to the smart crew of people that were watching it. But I think mainly because Memphis. Memphis being Memphis, and what he did to. All right, so he left. He was in 86 left, went to Mid south, came back. He tried to get a job back with, you know, called Jerry, Jared, Eddie Marlin. This is all in this interview also, but in Lawler. And he even says, I called Lawler. He tries to get a job back for Memphis wrestling. And they say, no, we don't want you, because, number one, he was green as grass when he left. He left on without notice. They were big about, you gotta fill your dates, blah, blah, blah.
And then he went on local radio stations.
Was it K? K 97 maybe? And a couple others talking about how racist Memphis wrestling was and how. And how they wouldn't let a black guy be pushed. And he was for shoot. Saying all this. It reminded me of the Randy Savage thing where Savage would do it on his show, talking about. Lawler and Dundee were scared of him.
What do you Think when something like what was something like that happened these days they were on even on local radio in Memphis. You know, would they try to tailor to. To this guy?
[00:14:54] Speaker B: I mean, they might, because, you know, shoot angles have, you know, over the years have become, you know, part of the. What they do. But like I said back then, it's just really bizarre. And another thing I didn't remember until I went back and watched this in the last couple of days is on TV from the KFA perspective. Lawler was a heel at the time.
[00:15:16] Speaker A: He was a heel. Yeah. He was going feuding against. He was getting ready to go that Monday night where this were Carrie Von Eric, right? Harry Von. Right, right, right.
[00:15:26] Speaker B: So he was a heel.
So in. In this, you know, I. What I think looking back on it, Memphis was kind of on its ass in a lot of ways. They weren't drawing well at the time.
And I guess with Lawler as a heel and there being such a large black population in Memphis and they kind of had lost those fans over time. They lost most of their fans anyway. But from what I hear, they had lost a lot of the black fans because, you know, it just wasn't a good time financially for people. And people just weren't buying tickets to go see wrestling. So I think they wanted. They had hoped the black fans, and fans in general would rally behind Snowman because he was sitting out in the crowd in the studio. You know, he was sitting in the front row of the studio amongst everybody. And I guess the hope was that they would rally behind him and come to see him take the title from Lawler and take down the racist Eddie Marlin and. And Lawler. And we'll talk about this a little more once you show it because. All right, about this is really strange. Like, pay attention as you're watching this to Eddie Marlin in this.
[00:16:31] Speaker A: Very.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: Weird.
[00:16:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And I want to tell you, when we get back, I want to tell you my reaction to this back in the day. So I. I really. I remember actually talking to Meltzer about this because I was Meltzer snitch for Memphis wrestling, and I remember talking to him about this. So here we go. Let's watch this.
Hopefully we won't get into any copyright.
[00:16:56] Speaker C: Trouble here, that he was no longer a champion at all and that I was the true world heavyweight champion.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: This guy's out here.
[00:17:27] Speaker C: Look.
[00:17:27] Speaker A: Lawless out here.
Wait just a minute. Snowman.
[00:17:31] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:17:32] Speaker A: This is our wrestling program. You have no business being on it unless you contact me or some of.
[00:17:39] Speaker C: The officials and I'm not contacting you anymore. That's all I do is contact you.
Let me tell you something.
Not going to come in here and interfere with this show. I had you right. This man is not no world champion. He's got the belt to prove it. Make no difference. You got to be able to. He ain't never asked to beat me. He don't want to wrestle me. Who are you for him to be? Let me pray you something. You coming out and interfering with my business now. And I've got something you need to hear. I booked you in the CWA everywhere. And you refused to make your booking. You only wanted to wrestle Jerry Lawler. Let's go. I'm a wrestling. I'm going to wrestle Gary Lava, and that's who I want. I come out here to give him an open seller. You're not challenging him. You're challenging my company. And I'm not going to put up with it. Now, I'll put you on the card Monday night, Snowman, so you won't be in against him. You'll be against somebody else. You wait. Wait. Wait till I get through, and then you can talk. You can work your way up just like all the rest of them. I'm not working my way up. Well, then you're not getting a title shot. Look, man, y' all been doing me wrong around it for years. Let me tell you something. That's all right. I got some people here from Scores Productions.
I don't care who. They know exactly what I'm talking about. And everything I've been. Everything I've been trying to do in the town, who you. Look, I've been to you. I called la. I called him up and told him what I want. I asked him. You asked me. You called and I asked you. And he hired behind you. You can have a match Monday night. You can pick your opponent, but not law. You work your way up and then you'll get a title match. I hear what you saying. Law is not these people's champions. That's what I'm saying. Whatever he is, man, you can just get right out of here or you can step down. I'm not going. Look, wait, hold. Let me tell you something. It's one more thing. Hold up. Hold up for a minute.
Hold it, hold it, hold it.
Let me tell you something, Dave Brown, laa, you are not a champion. And I'm sick and tired of you putting down on my people. I'm sick and tired of you putting on. On the black people. You understand me?
All this stuff about you, about welfare checks, food stuff. I'm sick and tired of you, boy.
You know what it is, love?
It's because I'm black, that's all.
You trying to make it racial where you can get all the blacks on your side, but all the blacks are not on your side, Snowman, because we've got black wrestlers. You have. No, you don't have. One black wrestler can take this man out. Kyd came in, he's the top.
For your benefit, for your thinking. It's nothing. Let me say something. Hey, you can either sit down and shut up. I'm not saying. I'm not going to do nothing. You hear from my people over here.
Let him come.
I don't. I know.
Hey, let me tell you something. No, hey, come here. Come over here. I thought you came out here to do some talking. I thought you came out here to do some talking. Move all the way. Let him talk. Let him talk. Hey, listen, listen. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you what your problem is. What is my problem? I'm going to tell you what it is. You want to come out here and. Yeah, go ahead, take your shirt off. Show your big muscle up body. You want to come. Come out here. You want to come out here and try to get something.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: All right, all right. That was the gist of it with him coming out and. And to me was.
I remember talking to Dave after this. I knew it was a work, but I was just in shock of how, how good it was and how it made all of my friends say, what was he doing out on television?
And there. Here's a guy who walks out on tv. Now, here was the criticism of Snowman, of the guys in the business.
All right, there. There is a certain type of guy in the wrestling business that believes his hype. He believes that when he beats somebody, he actually is beating that person. And you're thinking to yourself, and Gene knows this, but if you're listening to a bt, that's. That's ridiculous. It's all the work. No, they think they're. They're the reason they're champion. They've got that build. It's. They want it. They're the champion, and he was that guy.
So what was your thoughts? You, you said some things about it, but seeing him out there and saying it's black, it's all about being black. Blah, blah, blah. Now that in that time period, you could accept that. There's something we didn't say a few minutes ago is during that time period, this angle for sure, could be real, because there's all kinds of undertones about blacks and whether they got the push they deserved in Memphis.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
And there was a. There was certainly a case to be made on whether they didn't. Now, later, I don't remember if it was that clip or the next week, but at some point in there, the only thing I didn't like about it, watching it now, I'm always frustrated in angles where there's all this yelling going on and you really can't make sense of a lot of it. But then again, that helps put over the fact that it's not, you know, supposed to be happening or whatever.
[00:23:14] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:23:14] Speaker B: But at some point, Lawlor points out, king Cobra beat me for the title. He's black. So now what?
[00:23:21] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:23:23] Speaker B: It was kind of like, well, yeah, kind of throw that out there, but.
[00:23:27] Speaker A: I got a black friend. I can't be racist.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: So, yeah, it was that old thing, you know, and so it was very, like I say in the time period, it was an interesting way to go about it, because with Lawler being the heel, it could, by design, you know, rally, you know, black fans. Like, hey, I want to go out and see this guy beat Lawler. Because Lawler's, you know, being an these days, and, you know, we're behind Snowman. But then it also, deep down, people love Lawler, and deep down, a lot of people in that time frame especially were just like, hey, I'm gonna support the white guy, you know, so, like, you're also kind of messing with the dynamic of his heel run, because there was gonna be like, who's this guy to come here and call Jerry Lawler racist? You know, and he's calling my favorite promotion USWA a bunch of racists, and they're holding down the black guy and all this crap.
So it was a lot of weird dynamics going on. Watching it now, from a different point of view than I did back then, is strictly a fan. As somebody who's been on shows and ran shows and different things. Eddie Marlin, I don't know, like, at times, like, he needed to let Lawler handle it more than he was, like, bowing up on Snowman. I'm like, okay, why would Snowman not just knock his old ass out at this point point, like, he's getting way too. It seemed to me that either Eddie Marlin's a lot better actor than I gave him credit for, or he actually got half hot a couple of times during that whole ordeal because he seemed to kind of take literally, take offense to some of the things that Snowman was saying.
But I think, you know, I think it was a pretty smart angle for the time because, you know, they needed something that was going to draw. They needed something different.
And for the people who were somewhat smart or, you know, you know, kind of bought into like, oh, this ain't supposed to happen. This is some guy that's really showing up.
It might make you go buy a ticket that week to see, hey, what's going to happen.
[00:25:23] Speaker A: I agree, I agree. 100. And you mentioned something talking about the white people would then start, you know, with Lawler because it was a black guy. I'm going to take quick commercial break here. If you're doing the video, you don't see a commercial and it will be right back. I'm going to tell you why it.
A lot of white people were jumped on Lawler's bandwagon here. So right after the commercial break. All right, we're back. I want to bring you into.
I want you. I want to bring you into a white southern household in the 80s. Come on. Come on, Gene. Come on in here.
My dad was the biggest racist ever. I'm sorry, I, I'm just going to tell you. He was a huge racist, said the nword all the time, one of the sweetest guys you'll ever meet. But he was a racist. All right. So his. If he was interpreting this and watching this, the Snowman was a troublemaker.
No black man should come on to that television show and tell them that how to run their show. He was a troublemaker. And troublemakers shouldn't be rewarded.
And that's why you had a lot of the white fans jump back over to Lawler and it, it kind of didn't work as good as they thought it was going to work kind of thing.
[00:26:52] Speaker B: Plus, they didn't know this guy or if they did know him, he was the killer. Last time he was here, he was a heel, you know, it just, I don't know. He didn't come off like a star. He didn't come off like somebody for them to really get behind other than they're just gonna be like, hey, this black guy's getting done wrong. I'm getting behind him. And that's just not a fight most white people were picking up back then.
Sometimes, you know, you had, you know, he had a Black Lives Matter rally in Coleman. It was all white people. But that wasn't happening in 1990.
[00:27:21] Speaker A: No, not at all. Like I said, yeah, yeah, you're. You're you're talking about. And, and I said, household, I don't want to throw my mom under the bus because my mom was, wasn't racist at all, but dad was that way.
[00:27:33] Speaker B: And it said, but dad was the head of the household back in them days. So it's not like your mom's going to pick that fight, you know what I mean?
[00:27:39] Speaker A: Right, right, right, right.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: You know, she's gonna pull you aside and go, brian, that's not right, you know.
[00:27:43] Speaker A: Right, right. Exactly, exactly what happened.
[00:27:46] Speaker B: So we were all, we were all there back in the day. We ain't got.
We don't have to tell that.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: I want to share this clip and I'm not going to share any more clips, I don't think. But this clip made me feel very uncomfort.
This, this is part of the angle. And as soon as I start playing it, you're going to realize what I'm talking about, about making me feel uncomfortable.
[00:28:11] Speaker C: Like I said, I really don't have anything to say.
I've wrestled in this organization, I wrestle in other organization and belts and matches are won in the ring.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: Let me ask you this.
In the length of time you've been with the cwa, the uswa, anytime, anywhere.
[00:28:30] Speaker C: Any place, and be honest with me.
[00:28:32] Speaker A: Because there's millions of people watching, has anything ever come up that would be in your mind racially motivated?
[00:28:42] Speaker C: Just answered truthfully, don't lie.
Organization. No. Every individual have problems with another referee.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: So that part made me feel uncomfortable because I really like King Cobra. I've met him a couple of times, super nice guy. But it made me feel uncomfortable. Like, was he gonna actually say, oh, yeah, you know, they treated me, they were racist against me. What do you think he was going to say? And he, he came off in this angle as token, as in, look, like he said, look, here he is, he's our best friend. There's no way, there's no way Memphis wrestling could be racist because, well, we made him champ. That was almost like, that's what they said.
[00:29:30] Speaker B: It's like Eddie's standing over, like, tell them, tell them how. Tell them how good we treat you. Tell, Tell them how we've never been racist to you. Go on, tell them, tell them, tell them.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: Right?
[00:29:38] Speaker B: Like, don't you.
[00:29:40] Speaker A: I just felt real uncomfortable.
[00:29:43] Speaker B: Here's. Okay, here's another aspect and let me know if I'm reading too much into this or if you felt this way too.
But here, now, beyond the promos and the angles on television, where I felt like they're Also trying to work the people who are smart and think they know better. If you go back and watch the Jerry Lawler Snowman matches, at least the ones that are on YouTube, they did not work those matches like a wrestling, like your normal wrestling match. They encircle each other, lock up and do all the normal. They tried to work it like a half ass fight. I mean, you go watch it. They. They just come out like they're boxing at the first. They're swinging punches. They're do. They're. They're taking each other down and grapples like it looked like early ufs. Well, I mean, poorly executed early UFC types of. They did not have a worked. I mean, it was worked, but they did it in a way to make it look like they weren't cooperating. Like they were trying to act.
[00:30:46] Speaker A: Oh, this exactly what they wanted to do, wrestling.
[00:30:48] Speaker B: Because then you could turn around and watch another match where like Snowman's wrestling Jeff Gaylord. And it looks like any other match on Memphis TV you've ever seen.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: Five stars, by the way. Five stars.
[00:30:59] Speaker B: And then you go watch Lawler and Snowman. This is a completely different animal. And I've always, like, I didn't really put that together at the time, but looking back on it, I always hated angles to this day that they handle differently to where you're supposed to go.
[00:31:17] Speaker A: Oh, but this is real.
[00:31:19] Speaker B: This is real.
[00:31:20] Speaker A: The other's not real.
[00:31:22] Speaker B: Yeah, you cheapen everything else because, like, oh, that was all wrestling crap. Oh, they're really, they're really fighting and it looks like crap most of the time.
And then of course, you know, later you have the Leon Spinks aspect of it and all this. But.
[00:31:36] Speaker A: Well, we have three matches with Snowman. He actually wins the title after the three chances.
Wins the title from Law. Unified title. He's the champ. He does some more matches.
I think he wrestles Lawler one more time that year. And then he does a couple matches, one with Brian Lee and then Lawler Ghost feuding with somebody else. And then he just disappears. He just leaves. He's gone.
And on, from August 13th on, he's gone. We don't see the Snowman any.
Marlon, I had this queued up, but I'm not gonna play. Marlon comes out and says, hey, we don't have a champion.
But you know this story, right? That the Snowman went back to the radio stations with the title and tried to tell everybody that he went and beat up the white man and. But they're still racist and they won't Book him anymore. And this is. Is this lower? Is this just fables or this shoot? He sold the belt at the pawn shop. He pawned it off in the rumor. I guess I can't get in trouble because he's Eddie Crawford. The snowman has passed away.
But it was rumored he did it for drugs. That's what I was told.
[00:32:56] Speaker B: I was gonna say. There's two different versions.
[00:32:58] Speaker A: Okay, tell me.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: Google Snowman unified belt or whatever. You'll see messages from various message boards. But there's one version that Snowman went and pawned it at a pawn shop in Memphis. And there's another version that he actually went to a well known crack house in Memphis and traded the belt for a bunch of drugs. And that Lawler himself or he sent someone who went and bought the belt back from said drug dealer or pawn shop, whichever version you believe. Then there's another version that he kept the belt and eventually he sold it to Milliken or traded it to Milliken. And that's how Milliken ended up with it again, which is how Lawler ended up with it again in later years, like, because when I was wrestling in Corinth in like 2000, 1999-2000, ish, Snowman came and worked a couple of shows.
[00:33:58] Speaker A: There that I was just. I was excited to ask you about.
[00:34:01] Speaker B: This because I remember Don Bass ribbing him in the dressing room.
There was. There was Rodney's CWA title sitting over there on the table. And Don Bass is like, y' all better put that up. Andy will go pawn that thing. And then. And then Snowman was like, oh, shut the hell up, Donnie. You know, I didn't do that. You know, that wasn't. That wasn't true. And then everybody just started, like, because it was him and Brick and Doug Gilbert and I think Tommy Gilbert was there that night. And they all just started laughing. So at that point, I'm like, okay, are they laughing because they know it's not true or are they laughing because they know?
[00:34:33] Speaker A: Because they know it's true. Right, right.
[00:34:35] Speaker B: But it was interesting to. To see that referenced by like five guys who were, you know, big time Memphis guys. He was all there for it, you know, and in. In the middle of it all.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: Did he seem to be working with you guys? Was he work. Did you have. Did he have any problems on the.
[00:34:51] Speaker B: He was only there for a couple weeks. He. He was super nice. Like, he shook everybody's hand. He was really polite. And I mean, he. Nobod problems. I forget who he Worked. I think he worked Brick House because Brick was healed at the time. I think he worked Brick House once or twice and maybe did something with Doug. I don't really remember because, you know, we're downstairs in that dressing room. Really didn't watch the show. So I don't remember, but I just. Because when they said, hey, Snowman's gonna be here next week, I was like, oh, man, what's this gonna be? You know, like, is he. Is he gonna have a chip on his shoulder? Does he have an attitude now? Or like. But he was really, really nice guy, because, like you said, I remember him.
You know, he went on those radio stations, there was commercials coming on TV of him with the unified belt, doing all about that. He did places and stuff. Whatever it was.
[00:35:40] Speaker A: I forgot about that.
[00:35:41] Speaker B: Yeah, he made a big deal. I'm assuming, though, if you believe everything you've heard about him and going back to what you said earlier about how, you know, he believed he really won it. I mean, however, you know, make that work in your head. You know, they called a finish and you walked out the champion. But I'm guessing probably when it came time to drop the belt, that's when he stopped showing up. Because, you know, Eddie Marlin in that speech on TV that, you know, he missed six schedule title defenses, and the story's always been that he just all of a sudden stopped showing up for bookings. He just quit. Yeah, yeah, he guessing they're like, hey, man, it's time for you to drop the belt. And he's like, no, I'm just won't come back.
[00:36:20] Speaker A: They did the thing with Leon Spinks. Leon actually did a thing with Lawler right after that. Snowman was part of some of that out there with Leon. Well, Leon said in an interview, hey, Leon came to Jonesboro.
Leon Spinks, and I never got his autograph. I cannot believe. Wow Was in Jonesboro on that Saturday before Monday night. So after they found out he was going to be there on the Monday night, he came to Jonesboro to pr. To practice, really, to see what the crowd would do and everything.
Got lots, lots of heat in Jonesboro.
But it was. It was that flip flop thing. You. You don't want to. You don't want to cheer Lawler because he's a heel, but are we going to cheerleader? I reached out to Jeff Osborne, who does some stuff with Lawler on a regular basis and did cassette wrestling news, and he did some UFC stuff. It was not ufc, but, yeah, he did work for UFC one time as A commentator. I'm trying to think of what else. Who can shoot. He did who can shoot in the Evansville Coliseum. He said that was close. The closest ever he saw of a riot was when Spinks and Snowman was there.
So they were supposed to be baby faces, but that crowd did not want to cheer them and thought they were. Like I said about what my dad said, they were troublemakers and we weren't going to get on their side. And so it's kind of crazy to think that, you know, it's just almost like your. Who's your favorite wrestler? It doesn't matter, you know, color, anything. You just like the person for a reason. Now it's not like, you know, this wouldn't work now. I don't think.
[00:38:05] Speaker B: Well, a little more context there for people who don't know who Leon Spinks is.
[00:38:09] Speaker A: Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:11] Speaker B: He beat Muhammad Ali and Muhammad Ali. You know, we talked about JYD in the wrestling circles.
Muhammad Ali was one of the first athletes, especially as a boxer, who transcended race. I mean, everybody loved Muhammad. Everybody were some of the biggest races you ever met in your life loved Muhammad Ali. So, you know, besides, he had heat, I'm sure, with fans like that, because he's the one that beat Muhammad Ali. And people didn't appreciate that.
[00:38:40] Speaker A: They would go to close to drive ins. My dad would. To watch the Ali fights, you know, so he was a huge Ali fan. But you're right, he was one of those guys. And Leon beat him.
We. He just. I mean, Snowman came into Memphis. All the. The lower. The. The thing about what's going on with the title and all that always become part of Memphis.
Memphis history. And then we never saw him again.
I didn't see him on any of the independents, and I met a lot of guys during that time. I never met the guy. He.
I wasn't. I actually was not able to go backstage when Leon was there, which was very unusual for me in Jonesboro. I was able to go backstage, but they kept me from going backstage at night because of Leon being back there. But he.
Let me just say, he. He had a very storied Pat. A storied story, whatever you want to call it in Memphis. But have you seen.
I don't want to get so deep into this, but have you seen the history his son had?
[00:39:49] Speaker B: No, I remember that. I remember his name being in the news, but I don't remember his.
[00:39:54] Speaker A: His son was Xavier Crawford.
He was said to be. Have been. And this may have changed, one of the best or the best football player to ever come out of Memphis area high school ball. He played for Memphis State. He's in. If he's still alive, he's still in prison for rape.
Two or three things where he said he did it and he raped him with objects like barbecue pork forks and stuff like that, and spent a bunch of time in jail. And still there, his son.
I don't know whatever happened to him, but he was good in football, too. Xavier's son. Xavier was the X Man. Do you remember that? Do you remember the X Men? Xavier Crawford. I know you're not a sports guy, but.
[00:40:46] Speaker B: No, but I do remember. Yeah. Like I said, I remember that being in the news and, you know, hearing.
[00:40:50] Speaker A: That, you know, but it was just in it. And it's just one of those things where it's. All this stuff was going on. Now, I wanted to ask this question before we ask the question, because I did enjoy, I love this angle as a kid.
And so you're talking about 1990. I was 18.
I was 22, 20, 21, 22, 23, something like that. So I still was.
I was still in. I was kind of in the business because I. I thought I was anyway, because I got the sheets, but. And I took photographs. But there's always been this underlining in, in, in.
I know if you're not from the Memphis area and you haven't worked around the Memphis guys, you've never heard this, that some of the guys that. That are in Memphis wrestling are racist.
And you've heard. I heard even some of them use the N word in the dressing room.
Do you think that was one of the reasons, number one, that they thought this angle was going to work so good, because there was a bunch of races sitting around thinking, let's try to get a black O.
[00:42:04] Speaker B: I think so.
I think they definitely, like, say because of the time and because of the place and. And who were the people involved?
Because Lawler, God love him, had said some things on TV over the years that could be construed as racist that still live out there in YouTube land.
So, you know, yeah, I'm sure they definitely thought that people were like, oh, yeah, it's real, because these guys are racist. And, you know, and I heard. And I spent a lot of time in dressing rooms with Brickhouse Brown, and I heard him make reference at time, you know, different times of all them racist ass. So. And so. Or, you know, if this person was in charge, then I knew, you know, I wasn't gonna be making any money. And I Wasn't gonna build because they racist and stuff like that. But, yeah. And you know, it's funny, since we're on this topic, I'm gonna slip this in real quick just because I know you'll be amused by this and I know some of your listeners who get this reference will be amused. I told a friend that we were recording this morning, and they go, really? What's the topic? And I said, snowman. He goes, oh, the original Johnny Dotson.
[00:43:07] Speaker A: Oh, my God, no, not at all. So.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: Okay, it took me a minute, but I'm like, oh, guy saying that everybody in Memphis is race.
[00:43:22] Speaker A: Okay, right, right, right.
But anyway, it's true.
[00:43:26] Speaker B: Shout out to Johnny.
[00:43:27] Speaker A: You're talking about that of us talking about people being racist and Lawler was racist. Well, you didn't say that. You said.
[00:43:36] Speaker B: No, I didn't say Lawler was racist.
Make sure we clarify that.
[00:43:40] Speaker A: I'm just saying no.
[00:43:42] Speaker B: You can find lines and things he said in promos. Like, go back and watch some of the promos he did against Rocky Johnson in the early days.
[00:43:49] Speaker A: Oh, there's some artwork. I reached out to somebody about this. It does exist.
I even have a friend, and I'm not going to say who it is, who has this artwork that I'm pictured to mention autographed by Jerry Lawler. There's a picture of Pork Chop Cash with these big, huge lips that he drew on it and eating watermelon.
And Lawler used that and put it in the programs and stuff when he was killed.
So, yes, folks, it was a different time. It was not politically correct.
And I, at times, I don't know if Memphis was ever politically correct.
I didn't see.
I personally, the guys that I hung around with in the Memphis, none, you know, they're like, Perry Jackson, he wrestled as Action Jackson. He hung around. It was me, him, Dutch Undertaker, and let me see. I don't know. There was a guy that worked as a chic something that was all. We were all together a couple of times, but there was never that. He's black. I don't like Perry or something like that. Perry and, and Undertaker were like best friends. Still best friends. They're, They're. He. I think he was in Undertaker's Wedding, but there, I never saw that. I, I don't know, you know, I don't know where it was, but, you know, but I've heard many people say they didn't get the push that they got because of their color. And I, I, I want to agree with them to a certain extent. But. And I keep saying, you and I know, but we. There's things that me and you know that people are listening to this, have no idea that they didn't push anybody.
Jerry Lawler, Build on D were the stars.
They pressed. They pushed Jeff Chair, Brian crisper, and maybe PG13. And can you. Can you get a common denominator with all three of those people?
They. They're, you know, Waller, Dundee kind of thing. Wolfie D just got lucky. He was.
[00:45:56] Speaker B: It's not racist nepotism. It's not.
[00:45:58] Speaker A: Yeah, it's called nepotism. And that. That was the last people. I said this many times, the last people that were ever pushed to Memphis wrestling. Kevin White, and when I started the website, got a really good push against Dundee once, and he got almost.
Almost a hundred thousand people watched that TV in that angle for like two or three weeks in a row. But, I mean, it wasn't like a long. A long push or anything like that. But they didn't push anybody. So you can say they didn't push white, they didn't push black. They didn't push anybody. So, I mean, I agree they didn't push black guys, but they didn't. The thing with King Cobra, and I'd have to talk to King Cobra. I'd like to bring him on and talk to him.
I know. I do know he was very happy when they put the belt on him. He felt as if it was an honor.
And it was, you know, kind of, I'm a black guy, but I'm also. This has also got something to do with, you know, I've had so many years in the business, but, you know, I've had people tell me many times they put the King cover, got the belt put on him because he was black.
[00:47:07] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what I always heard. The opposite of that. They're like, oh, yeah, they just wanted to put it on a. A black guy. But. And, you know, Keith Cobra had a very unique deal. You know, what was it? He had a good job. It was a FedEx or whatever it was that, you know, he just did tv. He just did the Coliseum. He didn't do any of the loops or any of that. You know, they. They worked around his job, and that's why he never went anywhere beyond Memphis after a certain point, because, you know, do that and still have his good career that he had.
[00:47:34] Speaker A: I don't know how true this is, and I'll have. If I ever bring him on, I'll ask him. He had a great shoot job, as you said. And he invented something.
[00:47:44] Speaker B: I remember reading that. I don't know what it was, but I remember reading because I read a really good article on him a few years back, and that's.
[00:47:49] Speaker A: He didn't miss a day and, like, confirmed all that. Yeah, 20 something years or 30 something years, he hadn't missed a day of work. He had invented something that actually made him a millionaire.
And so it was a piece of one of the machines he used at work. He improved that machine, got a patent on it, and. And they paid him a bunch of money for it.
But, man, if he's one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, so humble, you know. And as Dustin's told the story is they walk. They walked in the wrestling center when they were putting the wrestling center together.
And in all these guys are cleaning up the wrestling center, you know, the posse and everybody, they're trying to get it ready, and he's right there with them. King Cobra's right there with a broom in his hand helping get it all cleaned up. And it was just like, man, you don't have to do this. Yeah, it's got to be done kind of thing. So it's just. Just a really good guy. All right, we're gonna. Let's answer it, and we'll go to the Patreon section there. Was it really that good? Gene.
[00:48:58] Speaker B: Snowman, in my opinion, wasn't that good. If you look at the matches, even his promo, like, they. I found a couple of promos of his, and, you know, he. He wasn't a great talker by any straight. Like, he's called himself Daddy Whipped Cream in one of them. Like, what. What is that? What are you talking about? What is it? Is that your stripper name or something? Like, what are we doing?
[00:49:22] Speaker A: That's what I'm gonna call you from now on.
[00:49:25] Speaker B: It might be more appropriate for a fat guy like me, but, I mean, I. I like what they were trying to do, I guess, as far as just invent something that would create an issue to where they hopefully could draw me. Personally, I. I don't think it was that good. I didn't enjoy all the yelling and bickering in the promos. And I just. I'm not. I wasn't a fan of it then. And going back watching it again, like, no, I'm not really a fan of.
[00:49:54] Speaker A: I was a huge fan of it as a kid. I thought it was. In a. Part of. It was because I was trying. I was going from being just a fan for so many years into being A smart fan, getting sheets of all kinds and reporting today. Meltzer, I think it was part of it. It was. I felt like, oh, man, there. This could be a shoot. This could be. That's what I like about it. I still like it, but it really makes me feel uncomfortable a couple places. And I don't know if it makes me feel uncomfortable because of that. I. I'm older and I've lived through a lot of stuff, or it's just the idea that. That it was just. Even then, it was just so wrong. I mean, you know, not wrong in the sense that.
Let me say. Let me rephrase that. It was so correct what they were saying. That's what makes me feel uncomfortable today. Yeah. If you go back in that time period, as we talked, everything the snowman said was truth. It was truth. And that's. That's part of the shoot, part of it. And that it makes me uncomfortable thinking about, well, you know, we did have a lot of that going on, and it could be for real kind of thing. So, yeah, I still. Still there. The snowman still part of Memphis history.
Gene, I want to thank you for coming on. I mean, every two years, I need you to come on and do a podcast.
[00:51:18] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:51:19] Speaker A: All right, man. Same bad time, Same Bad Channel 2025, all episodes, Memphis in May.
Best little wrestling podcast in the business.
Be there. And as everyone knows and Gene knows, I love my mama.
