Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel presents "Kansas City Wrestling 1975" with Jerry Oates & Mike George

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Podcast. [00:00:05] Speaker B: We've got lots and lots of things to talk about and to do today. [00:00:08] Speaker C: Covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s. It's the best thing going today. [00:00:18] Speaker A: Interviewing wrestlers, referees, authors and other media personalities. [00:00:23] Speaker C: That have made the sport of professional wrestling great. [00:00:27] Speaker B: The cream, yeah, the cream of the crop. [00:00:30] Speaker A: And now here's your host, Tony Richards. [00:00:35] Speaker C: Well, hello, everybody. Welcome once again to another edition of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Podcast. And we're up to episode number 19. And I've got two fantastic guests on the show for you today. Both of them worked in the Central States area. The regional booking office there was located in Kansas City, Kansas, and Memorial hall was the big Thursday night venue that they wrestled in every week. They also wrestled in St. Joseph, Missouri. They wrestled in Des Moines, Iowa, Waterloo, Iowa. They wrestled in Sedalia, Missouri. Every Tuesday night. They wrestled St. Joe every Friday night. They actually did two television tapings, one in St. Joe and one in Kansas City. And when we get into the conversation later on in the show, we'll talk about the television a little bit. My first guest is a popular guest that is back by popular demand. We got so much great feedback the first time he was on, and he's going to be on on a regular basis. It's my good friend Jerry Oates. And Jerry held the NWA Central States Heavyweight Championship. And he's about to go into a feud in the Central states area in 1975 with Ed Wiskowski. And we lost Ed not too long ago, which a lot of fans who came later to the party might know him in his AWA run as Colonel De Beers. But Ed Wiscosie grew up in St. Joseph, Missouri, and had a big impact on the second guest that I have on today's show. But before we get to that, let's get into the program today and let's talk with Jerry Oates about Central States Wrestling, the Kansas city territory in 1975. Hello again, everybody. Welcome back to another edition of Personalities, Territories, Towns and Buildings here on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. I'm your host, Tony Richards. And back by Popular Demand, everybody's been asking when he's going to be back, and he's back tonight. Jerry Oates is from his home in Georgia. Hey, Jerry, how you doing, man? [00:02:49] Speaker A: I'm doing great, Tony, man, how are you doing? [00:02:52] Speaker C: I'm good. I'm real good. And I appreciate you coming back on the show. A lot of people have been asking when you were going to be back. So I'm Glad you're back tonight. And they said that they never knew as much about the Kansas City territory as you and I went over last time when you were here. [00:03:09] Speaker A: It was something else. [00:03:11] Speaker C: It really. It really was. I mean, it drew really pretty good money in the 60s and the 70s when you were there. I know it. I know it dried up quite a bit by the time the 80s rolled around, but there was a time where it was a good territory, right? [00:03:26] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. I mean, I enjoyed it. You know, we went up into Iowa, down into Kansas. We would go to Quincy, Illinois. So, you know, we have some trips out there. [00:03:42] Speaker C: Yeah, you come. You'd come to Columbia, Missouri. [00:03:45] Speaker A: Columbia, absolutely. [00:03:47] Speaker C: Jefferson City. [00:03:48] Speaker B: And. [00:03:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I think I even saw Montgomery City in there. Man, that's. And then also tonight, I want to get from the end of May through the end of September on this show, if we can. And in August, you start working in St. Louis a little bit, too, as sometimes the Kansas City guys would be over there in St. Louis working for Munchkick. And so I want to talk to you about that when we get there. But back at the end of May, you're wearing two different championships. You've got the Central States heavyweight title, which is the main heavyweight title in the Central States Kansas City territory. And you also are the world tag team champions with your brother Ted. And so you guys have been working with. Well, you worked with the interns at the first part of 75, but you. In April and May, you've been trading the belts back and forth with Yasu Fuji and Oki Shakina. And just, just to go back just a little bit and talk about those. [00:04:51] Speaker A: Two guys, Okie and Yasu, yeah, they. They were good. Of course, Okie wasn't as big as Yasu, and he was a little bit smaller, but we had some very, very good matches with him. I mean, very good. They. They hustle, you know, and that's. That's what it was all about. [00:05:13] Speaker C: And then you had some singles matches with them, too. I mean, they. They would book you guys in tag team matches, but then also in singles matches every now and then. Did you prefer to work in the. With those two guys, Yasu and Okie? Did you prefer working in the tag match or in singles matches? [00:05:32] Speaker A: It didn't matter at the time. It did not matter either way. You know, they wanted it done. We did it. [00:05:40] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, the biggest feud in the territory for the whole year was the singles feud that you had with Ed Wiskowski and Ed Wiskowski. A lot of people May know later on in his career and his Colonel De Beers. [00:05:58] Speaker A: Right. [00:05:59] Speaker C: But he. He was Ed Wiskowski. That was his real name, Ed Wiskowski. And he was from St. Joseph, Missouri. So he's here working in his home territory. [00:06:09] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:06:10] Speaker C: And you guys are feuding over the Central States title, and you're going to hold it here till the end of May, but then he's going to beat you for it. But I want to start out in May in Kansas City. Now, what's interesting here is the way Bob Geigel kind of booked this. Because Geigel's the booker, correct? [00:06:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:06:30] Speaker C: He booked you and Ed together in Kansas City and in Topeka, and he booked Mike George with Ed in St. Joe and Sedalia. So, I mean, that was just kind of interesting to me that he. [00:06:43] Speaker A: They both were. Mike and Ed Both were from St. Joe, right? [00:06:48] Speaker C: Yeah. Both hometown boys down there. [00:06:50] Speaker A: Right, Right. [00:06:52] Speaker C: So in Kansas City, let's just walk through these matches that you had with Ed. On 22 May, you have a match in Kansas City, and you and Ed are both disqualified. Then you have a match the next week in Kansas City on May 29, and Wakowski comes off the ropes, and he's coming off the top to come down on you, but you catch him coming off the ropes and you roll him up and you pin him. Do you remember much about working with Ed during this time? [00:07:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:07:22] Speaker A: Ed and I were closest to the same, you know, height and size. So we. It's funny, you know, like, my brother, he loved working with Wayne Calvin, who was later Dutch Mantel. They just clicked. They clicked together, you know, and Ed and I, we just clicked, you know, and it was. It was just smooth, you know, we. We just. We got along together in the ring. Didn't, you know, never had any issues with anything the other one did or when the other one did it. We just. We just clicked together. And, you know, and then I found that through my whole career, you know, some guys you just click with, not that you have any issues with them, you just. You just don't click. But Ed and I click. [00:08:12] Speaker C: And Ed, we were talking before we went on tonight, Ed could work, right? I mean, he was. [00:08:17] Speaker A: Oh, he was unbelievable smooth for a guy his size. He could do a lot of stuff. He did a lot of Harley stuff. You know, the head dive off the top rope. He did it just. I mean, he was excellent at it. [00:08:31] Speaker B: And he. [00:08:31] Speaker A: He would. I mean, he was just a pleasure. He was. When you got in the ring of him, it was A night off because you knew it was going to flow and it was going to be good. And we both worked hard, you know, didn't one never lay down on the other one, you know, that. That'll make a stinkeroo, you know. [00:08:53] Speaker C: I don't. I don't know how to ask this. If I. If I worked in the ring, I'd be able to ask you, but I. I'll kind of go take a try at it. But Harley and Ed Wiskowski and Mike George and a lot of those guys that kind of came out of Gus Karras, who was the promoter down there. Did they all. Did they all kind of have a style that was similar? I mean, did they all work kind of the same or. [00:09:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Now, I don't know how much input Ronnie Etchison had in training them. I think he did. You know. I know he didn't train Harley, of course, but I think, you know, Harley been. Been out there for so long, they might have kind of tailored their work after him a little bit. You know, I'm. I'm just guessing, but. But Mike. Mike and I. I don't know how much we wrestle out there, but we wrestle quite a bit in Louisiana together against each other. And Mike was a strong boy, you know. [00:10:03] Speaker C: Yeah, he was kind of had that fire plug bill. [00:10:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, he was very, very strong. Very strong. Fun to work with. [00:10:11] Speaker C: That building there in Kansas City, Memorial Hall. I mean, there's been just a ton of legendary matches there. There's been NWA World Championship matches there. There's even been, you know, that's where Harley won the title from Dory Jr. What was it like working there on a week? You worked there every Thursday night for a couple of years, right, while you were there? [00:10:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was. It was like when I worked in Atlanta at the City Auditorium, you know, it kind of reminded me of that. I just thought about all the people that had been through there, you know, from Milo Steinborn to Gene Stanley. If you knew who that was. All those guys that preceded you, you know, you think, I'm in the same building. And it was kind of that way in Kansas City. You know, the history of it. Yeah, it was changed hands there. [00:11:09] Speaker C: And for the people, people who don't know, and maybe you've just driven by it, but it was a big. It reminds you of an old movie theater, like a big, ornate, you know, building that was built right. Way back in the 30s, you know, and it was a big concrete building. And yes, looked. It looked impressive. [00:11:30] Speaker A: You know, it Was. It was. Was good for wrestling. You know, there's certain buildings around the country. I know in Georgia, the Bell Auditorium in Augusta was perfect building for wrestling. [00:11:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:11:44] Speaker A: The building in Columbia, Missouri. You couldn't design a building better. Yeah, Some buildings had that atmosphere to it. You know, it's like the people were on top of you. If they were in the balcony, it was like they were on top of you. You know, just the atmosphere of the whole building makes things totally different. [00:12:03] Speaker C: There was a television taping. I think you dropped the title to Ed Wiskowski at a tell on television, which. Which was unusual for those days. [00:12:14] Speaker A: Right, exactly. [00:12:16] Speaker C: But. But Ed was a. You know, I'm thinking Ed's a heel here. [00:12:21] Speaker A: Right, Right. [00:12:23] Speaker C: Because you're the baby face. [00:12:25] Speaker A: Yeah, always when I worked against him out there. [00:12:27] Speaker B: Yeah. But they're. [00:12:28] Speaker C: They're probably really trying to get him over here. All right. [00:12:31] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. It's business. [00:12:35] Speaker C: But I mean, I'm thinking that's probably why they put it on tv. Right. Probably him beating you for the. [00:12:40] Speaker A: And then when we go, you know, the different, you know, going up into Iowa and down into Kansas, it just. Just makes sense. [00:12:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:12:51] Speaker A: I mean, it really does. This one. No sweat off of my back because, you know, I beat a lot of guys on tv, so, you know, I mean, it's just. It's what it's about. It's about business. [00:13:03] Speaker C: Everybody gives to everybody. Then. Then you come back around in Kansas City then for the return match, and Wiskowski wins that match by dq. Because you've got blood, you've bladed, and you got blood, and your vision is all impaired, and you hit the referee instead of Wiskowski. You remember that match at all? [00:13:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I do. I do. [00:13:31] Speaker C: And then you come back the next week on the 12th in June in a match that's not for the title, but it's a chain match. And you and Wiskowski are hooked together by a chain, and you win the match by dragging him around all four corners of the ring. And this goes like 22 minutes. I mean, this is a long. That's a long chain match, man. [00:13:52] Speaker A: I can't believe you said that. When the match. I mean, it was one of those things. It was just right at the right time. Probably could have never duplicated that match ever again. So we got back to the dressing room, and some of the guys had been in the business a while. They said, we've never seen a chain match last that long. I said, well, tell me what we did wrong. Well, nothing, really. We just never Seen it just. We weren't thinking about the time. We were thinking about what we were doing, you know. [00:14:29] Speaker C: Right. [00:14:30] Speaker A: And he would like, maybe drag me to one or two corners and. Or get me to three corners. And it's like you start over again. It was. It was one of those things you just felt right at the time. And we did it. He and I thought it was all right. They said it wasn't nothing wrong with it. So it was just long. So. [00:14:50] Speaker C: Yeah. For a gimmick match. The chain match like that. Yeah. [00:14:53] Speaker A: And we. And we held the people's attention. [00:14:55] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:14:56] Speaker A: Standing up, you know, almost to the fourth rope. And he does something, pulls me back and we got to start over again. You know, it just. We took our time with. Instead of boom, boom, boom, boom. Got a chain, hit somebody with a chain, boom, it's over. And drag him around. [00:15:11] Speaker B: We didn't do that. [00:15:11] Speaker A: Was on top. Was on the main event. Well, these. [00:15:14] Speaker C: Yeah. These three matches in June, I mean, they just logically make sense because you get all bloody, right. In the first match. You hit the referee by accident, you get disqualified. Then you come back with a chain match. Now you're hooked to the guy. Right. So you ain't going to mistakenly hit anybody because you got a chain around your wrist. [00:15:34] Speaker A: And, you know, I had the chain on first and he's not wanting to put it on. And, you know, it was just. It was one of those things. It was in my mind and his eyes. When it was all said and done, we thought we did that right at the right time. [00:15:51] Speaker C: Right. [00:15:52] Speaker A: And you can tell by the people. You can tell by the people. [00:15:56] Speaker C: Yeah, they're going to. [00:15:58] Speaker A: Whether you're getting them or you're trying to get them. And once you get them, you don't want to lose. You know what I mean? It's. It's the psychology. [00:16:07] Speaker C: What have you seen guys do in a situation like that where they do lose them? Like what. What do they do to that gets a match like that off track? [00:16:15] Speaker A: Well, once. Once it goes sideways is brutal to get it back. You know, you. That was like. I don't know if I told you about the tag match with my brother and I against Waskowski and Tank Patton in Wichita. [00:16:32] Speaker C: Okay. No, we haven't talked about it. Let's talk about it. [00:16:35] Speaker A: You want to hear it? [00:16:35] Speaker C: Yeah, let's hear it. [00:16:36] Speaker A: Okay. So my brother's booked in Japan, and so that's the first time he ever went. So I don't know why he went and I didn't go. I don't know how that happened. It didn't matter because I'd been two or three times already. So he goes, so we're working in Wichita. I think it was just him and Ed in a singles match. And my brother could work. He could work. So my brother could. Could dislocate his shoulder. His shoulder blade would just be all jacked out in the back. So Wazkowski ran him into the pole, and my brother had his show. The shoulder blade came out, he could dislocate it. So carried him out and then boom, he's gone to Japan. But before he left, we said he went back home, come came back to Columbus, to Houston clinic, let Dr. Andrews check it. So I took pictures of them in the bed back. These were sent from Columbus, but I took them before he went to Japan. This thing built up while he's gone. Built up, built up, built up, built up. And talking about throwing this at you because of the chain match went so long. [00:18:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:18:09] Speaker A: So we get to Wichita and my brother was over in Wichita. That was like his town, that place. You couldn't get another human in there. [00:18:18] Speaker C: Wow. That's at the Century 2 downtown. Yeah, right. [00:18:21] Speaker A: Centralplex, I think they called it. [00:18:23] Speaker C: Century 2 auditorium. [00:18:25] Speaker A: Is that what it was? [00:18:25] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:18:26] Speaker A: Couldn't get another one in there. Couldn't get another one in there. So all the matches are going. The old matches are going. We know my brother's gonna beat him, but we don't know how this thing's gonna rock and roll. So we get out there getting instructions. They said, let him start. I said, oh, it's gonna kill it. Cover. You know, I've been telling him he'd been sending me messages. You know, he's getting ready, he's rehabbing his shoulder and he will how bad he wants it, blah, blah. I said, if he starts it, even with Tank, it's like I said, I'm gonna start this thing. Yeah. I don't have a clue how this is going to go. [00:19:13] Speaker C: Well, you want the crowd to wait for him to come in the ring right. [00:19:18] Speaker B: Now. [00:19:19] Speaker A: Talk about timing. I had them in my hands, but I'm doing it for him, right? My brother, this is. This is his town. We built this up for a month or five weeks. We built this for five weeks because I kept telling him, when he comes back, wachkowski, he's going to eat you alive. So he comes back. So I started, I think Tank started. [00:19:41] Speaker B: Boom, boom, boom. [00:19:44] Speaker A: They keep feeding one another, keep feeding them to me. Then they cut me off and I so that now it's like 15, 16 minutes gone. I stayed in the ring about 25 minutes. I said, whatever you do, whatever you do now, I'm gonna fight as hard as I can to get to him. I'm gonna fight. Do it. I'm gonna suplex you. After you back brought me and slammed me and covered me, I said, do not let me tag you till I tell you. And I said, man, I was fighting them both, pushing them, pushing them. They won't get no false tags. [00:20:19] Speaker B: That. [00:20:20] Speaker A: That would have killed him. You know what I mean? [00:20:21] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. [00:20:22] Speaker A: Nothing. I'd get three feet from him. They pull me back by my hair, by my trunks, do something else. Boom, boom, boom. And they kept saying, it's getting close. They said. I said, I'll let you know. I could hear. I, I, I had goosebumps. These people almost had a fever pitch. Now, if I'd have stayed much longer. [00:20:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:20:44] Speaker A: But when the time was right, when Ed was in the ring, I told him, I said, I'm going to tag him. And when I tagged him, he reached over the rope, I tagged him, and I was draped between the bottom and the second rope, holding on. And I told him, I said, go do your thing. When I tagged him, they went. They were throwing babies and popcorn and drinks, and they flew all over that ring for him. I never entered it. I stayed right there. Yeah, that was his night. His night. But I could have lost it. Yeah, but you could. You could hear them. They go. Only get. So they go get disgusted. [00:21:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:21:26] Speaker A: But when I knew it was right, I guess that was the best timing in a match I ever had. [00:21:31] Speaker C: It could have been down to where if you got cut off one more time, you know? [00:21:35] Speaker A: But I said, they're not getting any higher than this. I said, I got to do it. Yeah. And I laid there and I tagged and I laid there and watched him. He was slamming them, drop, kicking them back, dropping them. Boom. Those people. Boom, Boom. He, I think, drop kicked Tank out of the ring, and he did something. He had covered him. 1, 2, 3. And the pot was just amazing. Now I'm back to my feet, but I laid there and watched it. I said, this is unbelievable. [00:22:00] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, that's. [00:22:00] Speaker A: I wish it had been me. But, But, I mean, the. That made me think of that when you said that. Like they said, the chain match, it was just the timing. Yeah, everything's timing. [00:22:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:22:13] Speaker A: And he and he and Ed had timing together. I mean, Tank guy, who. He's pretty, dad gum good. Tank was big. He was big. [00:22:22] Speaker C: Now, Jerry does That just come from having a lot of matches like this. [00:22:28] Speaker A: Yes. [00:22:28] Speaker C: Working with a lot of different, different. [00:22:30] Speaker A: People and, and listening and watching us. My brother in law told me, he said even before your match when I was starting out. But if you matches before you watch him and when you get done go back out and watch him. Watch guys the win and how and the timing and it's just a, it's a. You don't learn that overnight. [00:22:53] Speaker C: Now this is in, this is in Wichita, Kansas, which Wichita, Kansas was a Monday night town. [00:22:59] Speaker A: It was a Monday night town in Kansas. [00:23:02] Speaker C: You'd work Wichita one week and Topeka the next week. [00:23:05] Speaker A: That is correct. [00:23:06] Speaker C: And so you know, I've heard people say Wichita, you can't do anything there. Well, that match is flies in the face of that. Right? I mean have you ever been somewhere where you couldn't get them going? I mean does that psychology pretty much work back in those days? Would it pretty much work anywhere as long as you knew what you were doing? [00:23:28] Speaker A: That's a good question. In some towns Topeka was hard. I don't know why we could have had that same matches Topeka, it would have been nothing like that. [00:23:42] Speaker C: But for whatever reason Ted was over in which. [00:23:45] Speaker A: That was his town. We, we worked with the Martin brothers, the Cormiers in Kansas City. One an hour. That's the best tag match I've ever been in, ever. We went an hour, we're in St. Joe the next night. Gonna do an hour. They didn't. We thought we was gonna have them falling out of the bleachers there. [00:24:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:24:13] Speaker A: Nothing. I, I don't know. [00:24:17] Speaker C: What was it about Ted and Wichita? I mean what was. [00:24:20] Speaker A: I don't know. I never figured that out. [00:24:22] Speaker C: Some guy, some guys just get over. [00:24:24] Speaker A: And that was his town. Yeah. I mean we had more tag matches there than Singers, but that was. They love my brother. I guess he's the smaller brother. But he was talented now. Sure, he was talented. [00:24:39] Speaker B: Sure. [00:24:40] Speaker A: Very talented. [00:24:41] Speaker C: So you come back in Kansas City with this return match, which makes sense because you had the first match where you were bloodied and you hit the referee. Then you had the chain match. Now you come back for the title in Kansas City and Wisconsin wins again. Right. And then they start booking this match over in Topeka and we just talked about Topeka was a little bit of a rough town to, to work in. What about you and Ed working in Topeka? Did. What was the reaction to you guys there? [00:25:10] Speaker A: Yes, we had some good matches. It's just. You feel it no matter what you Do. You're not going to get that pop that you want? You know, it's just. [00:25:21] Speaker C: You could tell Bob Geigel, as the booker, he's trying to get you going there because he's booking you in gimmick matches. So in August, he books you in a Texas Death match. And then in September, he books you in a cage match in Topeka. Did you feel like you ever got it going? [00:25:38] Speaker A: Yeah, it came up. It came up. I know. We was there one night. There was a bomb threat. They evacuated the building, but I stayed in the restroom. There's ain't no bomb in this building. Who wants to kill us? You know, I just think certain buildings have its own. You know, like I told you, the Bell Auditorium in Augusta, Georgia, the building in Columbia, Missouri. I mean, Columbia, South Carolina, was just like. It was made for the. The sound was all the way around. You know, it was just like. I hated wrestling in the odd things. [00:26:27] Speaker C: Was that from all the years of working in the City Auditorium? [00:26:31] Speaker A: Probably. [00:26:32] Speaker C: And the Omni was just a big. [00:26:34] Speaker A: It was a big bill. It didn't have that same. The atmosphere is everything in a building is everything that Omni had. No, no, not that he didn't draw right. It just wasn't that. Whatever. [00:26:52] Speaker B: It. [00:26:55] Speaker A: Just seemed like the excitement wasn't there. It was just so big. You know, I hated working in there. Had a lot of good matches in there, but just didn't like it. Now, the Keel was a horse with a different color. That. That building, I mean, that was legendary. [00:27:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:27:12] Speaker A: And getting back to Kansas City, I teamed up with guys that I had heard of all my life. Eduardo Compatier. I was in a tag match with him because they came in. Because the next night there's gonna be in St. Louis, right? Red Bastine. You know, I mean, great workers. Great workers. [00:27:34] Speaker C: And I want to ask you about a match you had on television at the St. Joseph Television taping on May 10. This guy had only been in the business 25 days, and you had a match with Jesse Ventura on tv. [00:27:53] Speaker A: Jesse. [00:27:58] Speaker D: He. [00:27:59] Speaker A: You know, I know Ganya didn't train him. Eddie Sharkey did, who I never met, not saying nothing against him. But Jesse. Jesse wanted to be, you know, who. Billy Graham. And he wasn't, you know, I mean, because Jesse had seen him up there in Minneapolis, where Jesse's from. And, you know, that was. I guess that was his idol, so to speak. And he was green. He was green, but we all were green at one time. You know, you can't. I'm not. I'M not taking that away from. [00:28:37] Speaker C: Sure. [00:28:38] Speaker B: He. [00:28:39] Speaker C: He had his first match on May 14, and then you had him in a TV match on May 10. Is it unusual to put a guy on television that early in his career? [00:28:51] Speaker B: Well. [00:28:54] Speaker A: Jesse looked pretty good then. You know, I don't know if they figured they'd try to do. Try to do something with him or not, you know, but he, but he, he left there and went to Oregon and that's where he got his, you know, kind of claim to fame. He was going to Hawaii and from there and back. But, you know, some guys, you know, if you. You cannot be somebody you're not. I mean, like, yeah, he had to. [00:29:27] Speaker C: Find Jesse rather than what suited. [00:29:32] Speaker A: What suited him, you know, I mean, I knew I wasn't going to be a superstar. Billy Graham or that was, you know, that. That wasn't my goal. I wanted to be a good worker, you know, I wanted. I wanted to be able to work with anybody, you know, and I figured my work would get me more places than having a super body and couldn't work because how long can you hide that, you know, And Billy Graham wasn't. I mean, I met the man, but he, he was limited. Yeah, sure, you know. [00:30:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:09] Speaker C: And if you work with the wrong guy, you get exposed, you know. [00:30:12] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, I, I didn't. That. That was never my forte. I, I just wanted to be as good as I could be, you know, and, and possibly go to any territory I wanted to go go to or on account of my ability, not the way. I mean, I wanted to look the part, but not that. That part that, you know, that size and that, you know, do what it takes to look like that. [00:30:44] Speaker C: So in June, as. As your. Your feud with. With Koski is, you're chasing him for the title now, but you're also holding the world tag belts with. With Ted. And you guys are coming kind of out of your program with Okie and Yasu and coming in with. With Jesse and Tank Patton. You mentioned Tank earlier, but also a guy named Buddy King. And Buddy King's name was Bob Griffin. And I think this might be the only place where he worked as Buddy King. But do you remember Bob Griffin here at this time? [00:31:26] Speaker A: Not at all. And I knew him. Bob Griffin from Georgia. Yeah, that's where I met him. [00:31:31] Speaker C: He. He's gonna. In the next year. In 76. Well, no, actually in 74. I got it backwards. In 74, he had been in Amarillo and working under a mask with a partner as the Patriots. And then they worked in Florida a little bit and then he's working here in, in Kansas City under a completely different name. [00:31:52] Speaker A: So it's, he was kind of a strange guy, just kind of strange, not bad worker. Just. I, I, it was like he, it was like a lot of guys were trying to find themselves, you know, what is it with a mask or wearing a singlet or, you know, I don't know but I, I never, I never knew what happened to him. You know, where he went from there. [00:32:22] Speaker C: We had a lot of matches with him and Tank as a team and then you did some singles matches with both of them. And you mentioned Tank there a few minutes ago. And Tank is in like 18 months into his career. He's early on too. So how was he at this time? [00:32:38] Speaker A: Tank wasn't bad. Tank wanted to learn. He wanted to learn, he wanted to learn bad. And he died young. I don't know what happened to him. You know what happened to him. [00:32:54] Speaker C: I'm thinking, I'm thinking he passed away in 98, but I'll, I'll have to look and see if I can find out. [00:33:09] Speaker A: And then we had a run with Dutchman Tell and Ron Bass. [00:33:17] Speaker C: Yeah, that's in the fall. That's coming up after, in October, so we're going to get to that in August you start going to St. Louis for the first time. And here's, I didn't mention this to you before we started recording, but on August 8, 1975 at the Keel Auditorium on a St. Louis card, you wrestled and beat Bobby Heenan. [00:33:46] Speaker A: I remember that match. [00:33:48] Speaker C: Do you? It goes about 10 minutes. [00:33:51] Speaker A: I remember that match. It wasn't bad. He could, that's a horrible ring. I never understood that town, that town. [00:34:01] Speaker C: It was an old boxing ring, wasn't it? [00:34:03] Speaker A: It was a 24 footer. Normally we're, we're either now in Kansas city, we wrestling 16 foot rings. Normally anywhere between 16 and 18 is perfect. But a 24 footer that throws your whole time in off. So when you throw a guy, if the guy's got you in a headlock and you throw him off, you got to take some steps in. If you don't, he has to come halfway across that ring to hit you with a tackle. The timing you have. But I had been working long enough I could adjust to that. Some guys, they were totally lost in that 24 footer and it was as hard as the parking lot. It was horrible, it was a horrible. [00:34:50] Speaker B: Rain. [00:34:52] Speaker C: And that's just like maybe three or four extra steps. You're not Used to taking. Right. [00:34:58] Speaker A: It'll throw you off. Because we were in Kansas City, we worked in 16 foot rings here in Georgia, we worked in 18 foot rings, but 24. [00:35:09] Speaker C: Wow. [00:35:10] Speaker A: That's like working on a parking lot. [00:35:13] Speaker C: But yet. But yet. Guys had great matches there. [00:35:15] Speaker A: They had. I mean it. Drew it. Drew. I mean it. You saw guys that you as a kid had read about. I met the bruiser there. Yeah. [00:35:29] Speaker C: He's on the card a couple of times while you're there. And amazing bruiser. He's working with Harley. [00:35:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:35] Speaker C: Hey, let me ask you this question. In this era, I know you guys worked different, right. I mean, you didn't work stuff out. You just pretty much got in the ring and had your match. [00:35:46] Speaker A: Right. [00:35:47] Speaker C: You kind of knew the finish. But other than that. [00:35:49] Speaker A: Other than that. [00:35:50] Speaker C: Because you just went impromptu. [00:35:53] Speaker A: Right, Right. Because just so you're not just say you and I on top and we have great matches, but once just say we have a great match in Kansas City and we come to Columbia and we said we're kind of in our heads, both our heads, not discussing or try to do everything we did in Kansas City. They may not buy it, but then we got to change, go a different direction. He may have to start off guzzling me or something. Are you guzzling me or. You know, every town's different. Every town's got a little quirk to it. You know, I know on. On our Saturday night towns here in Georgia, they used to run Carrollton and Griffin on the same night. And they were pretty much weren't big towns, but they drew Saturday night towns and smaller towns. You drew like crazy. And both of them kind of the similar. They were similar. Different buildings, but similar fans, you know, so it's. Every territory you went to was a little bit different, you know, what do they go for? What do they like? They like more wrestling or more. I call it kicking and punching, which, you know, more like Memphis or, you know, up in there. [00:37:12] Speaker C: But Bobby's here. He's working in the managing Mark Winkle and Stevens tag team because he's been. He's been a worker before. He's a good worker, right? [00:37:24] Speaker A: Very. He was. [00:37:25] Speaker C: And so you get. So you get to St. Louis that night to the Keel and. And so who's the booker? Pat o'. [00:37:31] Speaker B: Connor. Pat. [00:37:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:33] Speaker C: So Pat goes, hey, Jerry, you're working with Bobby tonight. Something like that. [00:37:36] Speaker A: Right, Right. [00:37:38] Speaker C: Then. Then what happened? Do you introduce yourself to him? [00:37:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I never met him because heard of him. He'd heard of me a little bit, but I'd heard of him more, I'm sure than he heard of me. And he just said, what do you want to do? And got finished and went in there. But he. He was all over the place. [00:37:53] Speaker B: I mean. [00:37:55] Speaker A: He would take bumps and pretty bumps, backdrops. And I gave him a turnbuckle. He goes in upside down. Because he had been around Ray Stevens, right? [00:38:05] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:38:05] Speaker C: Seen Ray, Steven. [00:38:07] Speaker A: That was Steven saying, my brother worked with Ray Stevens there one night in St. Louis. And I never worked with Ray, but I worked with Nick different places. My brother said he'd never seen this. He gave in that 24 foot ring. He gives Ray Stevens a turnbuckle. He goes in upside down and over the ring post onto the floor. [00:38:33] Speaker C: Oh, my. [00:38:35] Speaker A: My brother. And that was a high ring. [00:38:37] Speaker C: Yeah. I was going to say that's a drop. [00:38:39] Speaker A: He said, I thought he killed Stevens, Steven. I never worked with him, though. Worked with Nick, though. But not. [00:38:46] Speaker C: How much confidence do you have to have to do a flat back bump like that? [00:38:52] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:38:53] Speaker C: That high. [00:38:55] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:38:56] Speaker C: And as soon as. Back then, you got to remember too, that nothing around the ring. I mean, this was concrete floor. Right. [00:39:02] Speaker A: No padding. But, you know, St. Louis was. [00:39:09] Speaker C: And that probably made fans in St. Louis a little antsy because. [00:39:12] Speaker A: Well, I'm sure they never seen anything. [00:39:14] Speaker C: Like that because Sam was not. He didn't allow much outside the ring. [00:39:19] Speaker A: So we were at TV on a Sunday. We did TV tapings in St. Louis on Sundays, right? Yeah. [00:39:25] Speaker C: At the chase. [00:39:25] Speaker A: At the Chase. So the bruisers there. [00:39:30] Speaker C: Dick. [00:39:31] Speaker A: Dick the Bruiser. [00:39:32] Speaker C: Yeah. I just want to make sure people. [00:39:34] Speaker A: Yeah. So he was in the ring. [00:39:36] Speaker C: It wasn't Bruiser Brody. No, Dick the Bruiser. [00:39:40] Speaker A: So he was in the ring doing something. Threw somebody out of the ring. And at the chase, they didn't want you going outside. He bails out. Boom, boom, boom. Does something to the guy. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Those who got back in the ring, o' Connor sitting there, he said, nobody gets over like Dick. And somebody says nobody can do what he does. Yeah. He's the only one that can get away with that. [00:40:03] Speaker C: Right. [00:40:04] Speaker A: But you can't have everybody doing. All right, well, say something to him. [00:40:09] Speaker C: Yeah, right. Other guys have gotten in trouble for doing that. [00:40:11] Speaker A: Exactly. I mean, you know, I mean, you can't have everybody doing the same thing, you know, I mean, I think a lot of that outside the ring crap is. I know I was. I. I'd been in the business about a year and a half and I was wrestling Bill White. Do you ever know Bill White? [00:40:30] Speaker C: Know who he is? [00:40:31] Speaker A: Yeah, we wrestle in America's Georgia. It's like 65 miles from my hometown. On Thursday night, we go outside the ring, we're swapping punches. He draws back to hit me. And when he come around, he had a kid in the head. It was one of the cops that was working the matches, son. [00:40:53] Speaker C: Oh, no. [00:40:53] Speaker A: You know, he drew his gun. [00:40:55] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. [00:40:56] Speaker A: That kid started screaming like he killed it. I mean, he hit it and, man, we got our butts eat out. Which we should have. [00:41:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:07] Speaker A: You know, and then when I started promoting, I tell the guy, do not go out of this ring. Not two of you. One of you can't. On the. You open yourself up to all kind of lawsuits. [00:41:17] Speaker C: Oh, sure. [00:41:18] Speaker A: I mean, especially this day and time, you know, But, I mean, he nailed that kid. I mean, he nailed it. Cop drew his gun. [00:41:27] Speaker C: You worked for a whole lot of different. I mean, there was a lot of difference between the way Sam did things in St. Louis and the way Bob and. And those guys did them in Kansas City. And that was different than the way they did them in Georgia. I mean, how did you like St. Louis? Like, it was a very strict, very. I mean, he was really focused on the wrestling part. [00:41:51] Speaker A: The wrestling part, Exactly. Like, did that. [00:41:54] Speaker C: Did you enjoy that or did you. [00:41:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean. [00:41:58] Speaker C: Or did you like Kansas City, where it was a little. You could brawl a little more. [00:42:04] Speaker A: And to me, that was like. Going to St. Louis was like the icing on the cake, you know, I mean, everybody wanted to go to St. Louis. I mean, the keel. Everybody wanted to go to the keel. You know, it's like the only building I didn't go to that I wanted to go to was Madison Square Garden. I just didn't go there. But I wanted to wrestle at the Olympic Auditorium. So when I left Oregon, I told you I booked myself in L. A. Spent a week out there just to wrestle there. [00:42:35] Speaker B: There. [00:42:36] Speaker C: Oh, that's awesome. [00:42:37] Speaker A: That was kind of. [00:42:38] Speaker C: I can't wait till we. I can't wait till we get there. And I want to talk to you. [00:42:41] Speaker A: About it and the history of the Olympic Auditorium. Yeah, the great boxing matches and, you know, Gorgeous George, Gorgeous George, John Tolus Blassie and all those guys, you know, because I wrestle. Told us. I wrestled. Told us a lot in Louisiana when he came there. [00:42:59] Speaker C: Well, the. The. Another guys that you're familiar with, the Garibaldi's, the Garaboto, they were huge in Los Angeles. [00:43:06] Speaker A: They were big. They were big. I mean, just the history of it. I walked around in there like a kid, you know, it was. It was awesome. And the kill had a mystique to it about it, you know, of just the history of it. And just think of all the guys that had been through there, you know. [00:43:23] Speaker C: At that point in 75. I mean, that's, that's 27. 27, 28 years. Much Nick's been promoting there at that point. I mean, almost 30 years. [00:43:34] Speaker A: You know who Bobby Bruns was? [00:43:36] Speaker C: Oh, of course, yeah. [00:43:37] Speaker A: He was there, always there. We used to jank on him. He's a world champion. Yeah, well, he's a nice guy. [00:43:45] Speaker C: He was instrumental in getting wrestling into Japan. [00:43:49] Speaker A: Is that right? [00:43:50] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I had Fumi Saito on the show here the other night and he's a Japanese wrestling historian from Tokyo. And he talked about how Ricky Dozen and Bobby Bruns were big, big buddies. [00:44:04] Speaker A: No kidding. I didn't know. I used to talk to him. He was a nice man. [00:44:09] Speaker C: I bet he was fascinating to talk. [00:44:10] Speaker A: He was very nice. Very nice. [00:44:14] Speaker C: So the next time you go to St. Louis is on August 22nd and you're in a six man. And this is interesting too. So this is a six man elimination match. Three guys on each side. And the way this works is before. [00:44:31] Speaker A: You go any further, was Wilbur Snyder. [00:44:33] Speaker C: That's it. Yep. [00:44:34] Speaker A: I'm gonna tell you about that. [00:44:35] Speaker C: It's. It's Wilbur Snyder and Bob Geigel and you. And on the other side, Big Bill Miller, Ed Wiscoski and Bobby Heenan. And in an elimination match, when a guy gets pinned, then it's 3 on 2 and 3 on ever how it goes, right. The, the guy gets eliminated, he's out of the match until it gets down to two guys. So tell me about the match. [00:44:59] Speaker A: I don't know who won it. [00:45:01] Speaker C: Well, you guys did. I don't know who pinned who, but. [00:45:03] Speaker A: You guys, I know I must have. Cause when they got the finish, Snyder looked at me, he was hot as a 38. Because what was. Snyder and the Bruiser were. [00:45:13] Speaker C: Oh yeah, he like business partners. [00:45:17] Speaker A: Yeah. He's like, who's this guy? I guess he didn't appreciate it, but that's not my town. [00:45:25] Speaker C: Yeah. So he. So in elimination match then Wilbur would have had to get pinned then. Right. Because if you won the match, then you were in there. Probably came down to you and Wisconsin since you guys, you guys had the Kansas City program. [00:45:37] Speaker A: Maybe he was shocked. I remember that, that night. So I knew when you said six. [00:45:44] Speaker C: Months of sniper well, the guy I wanted to really know about, and I don't know if you wrestled him very much more other than this match or knew him, was Big Bill Miller. [00:45:55] Speaker A: Yeah, he put me over in the singles match. Nice man. You know, he's a veterinarian. [00:46:02] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:03] Speaker A: And I knew his brother Danny. Danny was in Florida when I started. And Danny, as a matter of fact, when I went to Japan the first time he was on that tour. But you talk about a big man, he could handle himself, too. [00:46:17] Speaker C: Oh, there's a reason they call him Big Bill Miller. [00:46:19] Speaker A: Yeah, he wrestled at Ohio State. [00:46:21] Speaker C: Yeah. A guy not long ago that I talked to said that he was neighbors with him after Bill had retired from wrestling. He was a cattle rancher in Oklahoma. Bill was. That's what this guy said. And he said he. He was. He had the ranch next to him, really. He always talked about the wrestling days and everything. And down at the feed store, he'd talk about it and everything. [00:46:45] Speaker A: And did you hear of a DMSO? It's a horse lineman and 74, 75. Everybody was using it. [00:46:56] Speaker C: You know, my dad probably used it all the time, but I, you know, I didn't. [00:47:02] Speaker A: It was. It had a horse leg on. On the label. [00:47:05] Speaker D: Oh. [00:47:07] Speaker A: So I'm in St. Louis one night, and Bill came down to my dress room. We're just shooting a bull. He saw that bottle in my bag. He said, he's a veterinarian. He said, what do you. I mean, this is the legit stuff, not some off the wall. DMSO is real stuff. He said, what are you doing with that? I said, well, I'm putting it on my knees. My knees are bothering me, you know. He said, but you could put it on your knees and in five minutes you could taste it in your mouth. He said, you know, that stuff gets all in your system. He said, you know what I want you to do with that bottle? Throw it away. [00:47:48] Speaker C: Oh, really? [00:47:50] Speaker A: And I never use it again. He told me what it had in. I think he told me had turpentine in it. Forgot what he told me he knew he was a vet because he used it on horses. [00:48:01] Speaker C: Well, of course. Yeah, but a horse circulation system's different. [00:48:05] Speaker A: Than a. I would think. Yeah, but he. Nice man, you know, educated, nice. He was just. He just enjoyed doing it, you know. [00:48:15] Speaker C: Well, you brought this name up. And this is back in Kansas City on the last show of August. It's August 28th, and it's a tag team match. Okie Shakina and tank, patent against you and Red Bastine. What's Red doing here in Kansas City? It's just this one. One match. [00:48:33] Speaker A: He's going to be in St. Louis the next night. [00:48:35] Speaker C: Okay. [00:48:36] Speaker A: Did you know he could work? [00:48:38] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And I got so much respect for him, too. You don't hear about his booking, but he was a great booker. [00:48:47] Speaker A: Really? I did not know that. That was the only time I ever met him. But he was super nice. [00:48:56] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, you and I have talked about great bookers before, Leo and Renesto and different ones. But, I mean, Red was right there, too. [00:49:06] Speaker A: Where was he booking? [00:49:08] Speaker C: He booked just about everywhere. He booked Texas a lot. He booked a lot for Fritz in Dallas. I think he was the booker before you got there. Because when you got there, Leo was there. [00:49:18] Speaker A: Leo was the book. [00:49:20] Speaker C: Yeah. And Red had been there for a year and a half or two years. [00:49:24] Speaker A: And I did not know that he. [00:49:27] Speaker C: Had gotten Houston up, going really strong and some of those other towns in Texas that had been a little down, but he got him up and going. [00:49:36] Speaker A: But he was a good worker. Smooth as silk. [00:49:39] Speaker C: And that doesn't always translate. You know, when a guy's a really good worker, he's not always a good booker or vice versa. [00:49:46] Speaker A: Look at athletes, like great quarterbacks or great whatever or great baseball players. They're not such hot managers or coaches. [00:49:56] Speaker C: Did you like working in a tag with him? [00:49:59] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was just happy. Go. Lucky guy. [00:50:04] Speaker C: I mean, the guy that I'm thinking is benefiting from all this is Tank Patton, man. He's. He's been in the business 18 months, and he's in a tag working you and Red Bastine. [00:50:13] Speaker A: Getting to work with Bastine. I mean, it was honored for me having him as a part. [00:50:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:20] Speaker C: So in Kansas City on September 4th, you have a match, a singles match, and all these different guys are coming in now, and there's a couple. And there's another match in St. Louis after this one. Talk about. But in Kansas City on September 4th, you've got a match where you beat the Baron. Baron Ron Rashford. [00:50:40] Speaker A: I cannot believe you said that. That Jesse hadn't been there that long and he'd seen Von Rasky in Minneapolis. [00:50:47] Speaker C: Right. [00:50:48] Speaker A: So he said, I, I, this is the gospel. He said, you're working on Von Rasky tonight. I said, yeah. He said, you scared of him? I said, no, I'm not scared of it. He said, you know, he's crazy. I said, yeah, but I said, I'm not scared of, you know, Von Reski was a pistol man, too. [00:51:08] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:51:09] Speaker A: Brush. [00:51:10] Speaker C: Yeah. But I've always heard he was really funny. [00:51:12] Speaker A: Like he was a character. I never, I'd never met him. [00:51:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:16] Speaker A: Until I got in the ring. You know, he's got that. He's crazy looking, cauliflower ears, mouth. [00:51:23] Speaker C: And I think they told me he was Jim Rasky from Nebraska. From Nebraska. [00:51:30] Speaker A: He was like wrestling nothing, I mean, vicious looking guy. [00:51:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:37] Speaker A: But just he knew what he was doing. [00:51:39] Speaker C: He was a heck of an amateur at the University of Nebraska. [00:51:42] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. He could handle himself. I mean, he. But he was a professional. You know, most of those pistol guys, they didn't talk that stuff, you know, they knew they couldn't make a living doing that. You could go around stretching all your opponents, right. [00:51:59] Speaker C: Nobody's gonna use you, nobody's going to work with you. [00:52:01] Speaker A: And, you know, you may be able to draw money or not, but I never heard him. I never heard the guys that could really, really like him or Briscoe or Roop or any of those guys, they never talked that junk. You already knew it. [00:52:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:52:19] Speaker A: Odell Lewis, you knew it. [00:52:21] Speaker C: I'd give $20 to be able to go back in time and be there and hear Jesse right then. [00:52:27] Speaker A: I swear. He said that. He said, you're not scared of him. No, I have no reason to be. Unless I. [00:52:34] Speaker C: That's funny. [00:52:35] Speaker A: Knock his teeth out. [00:52:38] Speaker C: The next night in St. Louis. So this is you beat Von Rashke in Kansas city on the 4th, then on the 5th, you're back in St. Louis again at the Keel, and you're in a tag match, and your tag team partner is Pat o'. Connor. And you guys beat Ox Baker and Dick Murdoch. And that match goes 20 minutes. Now, I can't believe Ox goes 20 minutes. But it's a tag match. I mean, Dicky probably won 18. Yeah, he was. [00:53:08] Speaker A: You talking about a worker? Yeah, he and I had some matches, but. But Ox. Ox is going to go at his pace, which is slow. You know, you just have to adjust yourself. [00:53:22] Speaker C: I mean, you're in there with the one. I. I think he's underrated as NWA champion. Pat O'. [00:53:28] Speaker B: Connor. [00:53:29] Speaker A: The first night in Kansas City, I went 30 minutes with Pat. My first night in Kansas City, I never wrestling. I'd seen him when he came through Florida. He wasn't a champion then. This is like in 69. And I saw him, I think, damn, this guy was a world champion. I had a headlock probably for 20 minutes on him in a 30 minute match. He wore me out. And I Had the headlock on him. [00:54:01] Speaker C: Wow. [00:54:03] Speaker A: He was a tough son of a gun. [00:54:04] Speaker C: I mean, it's 15 years after he was the world champion. [00:54:07] Speaker B: I know. [00:54:07] Speaker C: I mean, still go. [00:54:10] Speaker A: Oh, yes, sir. Absolutely. Pat didn't work a lot. He'd work. I bet I didn't see him 10 times in Kansas City work, but he'd work some in St. Louis, you know. [00:54:23] Speaker C: You know, I always heard that Sam had him on a pretty short leash, and he was booking there in St. Louis for Sam. I mean, how did you. How did you. What'd you think about him as a booker? [00:54:40] Speaker A: Well, other than knowing he never really had any say so in Kansas City, so I. I really can't comment on that other than what he did. [00:54:48] Speaker C: But he gave you your stuff in St. Louis, right? [00:54:52] Speaker A: Absolutely. So, I don't know, like you said, I don't know how far Sam would let him go. [00:54:58] Speaker C: I don't think very far. [00:55:02] Speaker A: You know, I always kind of believed that. I thought there was a hidden something, that maybe Sam said, I want this, this, and this, and then that. Course, Sam never come around and said nothing to anybody about what the matches were. That was Pats. So I don't know how much real between you and I and whoever's listening, how much actual input he had into that book, you know? [00:55:28] Speaker C: I mean, you can bet that whatever Dick the Bruiser did in St. Louis was nothing compared to what he did in Indianapolis, because right. In St. Louis, there just wasn't a. [00:55:39] Speaker A: Lot of that Right. [00:55:40] Speaker C: Tolerated and. [00:55:42] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. [00:55:43] Speaker C: And Dick Bruce the Bruiser got in trouble a few times in St. Louis, too. [00:55:48] Speaker A: And, you know, I'm sure they took care of him, too, so he didn't want to lose that gig. I'm sure they took very good care of him there because people eat him up, you know. [00:55:59] Speaker C: So then we got two matches here in September, just, I mean, one week right after. Well, just a couple days within each other. On September 11th in Kansas City at Memorial hall, it's the international heavyweight champion, Terry Funk and Jerry Oates going to a no contest. So Terry's got the international title here, and he just won it like a couple weeks before in Amarillo. That was Cyclone Negro before he beat Cyclone. [00:56:30] Speaker A: That is correct. [00:56:31] Speaker C: He beat Cyclone Negro for that title. So do you remember that match at all in Kansas? [00:56:36] Speaker A: Yes. Then we come back again for the bell. The winner of that match is going to meet. [00:56:59] Speaker C: Jack Briscoe. [00:57:01] Speaker A: Jack Briscoe, because I've already wrestled Briscoe. [00:57:04] Speaker B: And. [00:57:08] Speaker A: I wrestle him. Briscoe and St. Joe and the Mowins while we were out there, the winner of that match between Funk and I for that international title. The winner of that match is Go Russell. Jack Briscoe for the world title next. [00:57:22] Speaker C: Week in Wichita and Kansas City. [00:57:30] Speaker A: Yes. So I beat Funk. [00:57:36] Speaker C: Yes. [00:57:41] Speaker A: And the next Thursday night, Terry Funk comes in with that belt. He's the world champion. [00:57:48] Speaker C: You had a match with Briscoe the next week in a two out of three falls match. And you guys went an hour. You and Briscoe. [00:57:58] Speaker A: Where? [00:57:59] Speaker C: In Wichita on September 15th. Jerry Oates and Jack Briscoe, one hour time limit. Draw two out of three falls for the NWA world title. [00:58:12] Speaker A: I wrestled him one hour in St. Joe. The first time I ever wrestled him. And the second time I wrestled him was in Des Moines. And that would have been the third time I wrestled. I enjoy wrestling him. [00:58:31] Speaker C: I was going to ask, like, what. Tell me a little bit about working with Jack. [00:58:40] Speaker A: He was the world champion, right? You didn't open your mouth. I tried it the first time I worked with him. He said no. I never said another word. [00:58:55] Speaker C: Was it. [00:58:56] Speaker A: He's only, only. [00:58:57] Speaker C: Was it easy? [00:58:58] Speaker A: He's the only world champion I work with that ever said that. I don't know if he did everybody else, but I never, I never said another word. [00:59:07] Speaker C: Anytime I worked with him, I just imagine. I mean, I. I don't know, of course, but just speculating and thinking, I mean, with that schedule, don't you think you probably go on autopilot after a while and just kind of, you know, you, you want to be the one to call the match just to. [00:59:27] Speaker A: He's a champion and he's a champion. [00:59:29] Speaker C: Right. Who called the match? [00:59:31] Speaker A: I can understand that there's some things he might not want to do. I thought about that title, you know, I told you I was approached about it one time. [00:59:40] Speaker C: Yeah, we talked about that. [00:59:41] Speaker A: Never came to pass. That's neither here or there, but I've looked back. If you just had it for six months, what that would be like. [00:59:53] Speaker C: A lot of traveling. [00:59:54] Speaker A: I mean, you could be. You could be in San Francisco tonight and be in Miami the next night with that bell. I mean. [01:00:08] Speaker C: Yeah. Terry Funk said he, he fell asleep on the, on the, the shuttle, you know, going from plane to plane, I'm sure. [01:00:19] Speaker A: No joke. And you had to make, you know. [01:00:22] Speaker C: He woke up and he'd missed his plane flight because you got to make. [01:00:25] Speaker A: Your own travel arrangements. And I mean that. I mean, come on now. [01:00:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:00:30] Speaker A: And wrestling with. Every time. Dick and Harry. I can understand you calling. This is. This is All I'm gonna do tonight, you know. Yeah, those guys did a lot of hours. [01:00:41] Speaker C: That's what I was trying to say is I would imagine after a while, you just want to do your thing. [01:00:46] Speaker A: The first time I ever met Harley was when we ran the Omni here in Georgia. The first time. That's the first time I'd ever met. He just won it. I said, what's it like having that belt? He said, daddy, I've had it nine days and I've gone nine straight hours. [01:01:04] Speaker B: Wow. [01:01:05] Speaker A: That was just him. Like I was going to be there for that time. The middleman for a couple of months. [01:01:15] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:01:16] Speaker B: But. [01:01:16] Speaker C: But the thing is, Jerry, is you. You have no control over your schedule, Val, that you. You have to make the schedule you're given. And like, if you and I know you did this before, I don't know exactly how you handled it, but you and Ted went to Japan. You guys won the tag belts, right. You probably scheduled in a little time in between coming back from Japan to give yourself a little. Little bit with the jet lag you don't get right. You don't get to do that if you're the champion. [01:01:43] Speaker A: No. [01:01:44] Speaker C: You got to be at the next place. [01:01:46] Speaker A: You think about that, because you go to Japan here In Georgia, that's 13 hour time difference. [01:01:51] Speaker C: And he's going. And the champion back then, they're going there. They're going to Australia, they're going to New Zealand. [01:01:57] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:01:58] Speaker C: They're going to Mexico City, Mexico, everywhere. They're going to Calgary. [01:02:02] Speaker A: And just think about here from coast to coast. Three hours difference. [01:02:10] Speaker C: So who called the match with you and Terry Funk? [01:02:14] Speaker A: Whoever come up with the next idea. [01:02:16] Speaker C: You guys work together? [01:02:18] Speaker A: Terry, first time I worked with Dory, worked with him in Japan. Been in the business exactly 20 years. I think I told you this. I was in awe because he traveled with Japanese guys, him and Terry, when they were there. And I said, God, I'm gonna wrestle Terry. I mean, Dory Funk, that was my epitome of a world champion, his work. He did nothing that was wasted. He did nothing that wasn't solid. He did nothing, Threw very few fists. So I got the ring with him, didn't open my mouth, didn't know my mouth. I had that much respect for who he was. And I saw him in the hall the next night. I said, you know, this first time I worked with you, Doris, I've been in business 20 years. He said, I knew we never worked before. I said, if I ever work with you again. I said, while we're here. Can I call anything? He said call anything you want. [01:03:11] Speaker C: Oh, wow, that's great. [01:03:14] Speaker A: But he's not the world champion anymore. But, yeah, can you imagine the hours he did? [01:03:20] Speaker C: No, for three and a half years. [01:03:22] Speaker A: He was a master. Have you ever pulled up those matches of him and Briscoe? [01:03:28] Speaker C: Oh, sure, yeah. [01:03:31] Speaker A: That's classic stuff. That's where Jack really learned to work, because before Jack got that belt, he was going all over the country working with Junior. That's what he. I think. Of course, he was a natural wrestler anyhow, but those pro. That pro stuff, he. Him and Ore did it together. [01:03:50] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. They did three and a half years with Dory as the champion. Then they did two and a half years with Jack as a champion. [01:03:57] Speaker A: For exactly. [01:03:58] Speaker C: For almost six years. It was. That was the match. You know, and I've said this before, it was almost unfair in a way for Terry to get it after that, because for almost six and a half years, that match was the match. Now all of a sudden, you've got to come up to that standard. And almost nobody could match that standard. [01:04:21] Speaker A: And it. And it never was, in my opinion. And I had a lot of matches with Terry, but, yeah, he was a. [01:04:29] Speaker C: Different kind of work. [01:04:30] Speaker A: He clown. He'd do some clown stuff in that rope, rocking back and forth, which I don't think that's what a world champion should be. [01:04:44] Speaker C: So then back to St. Louis on September 19th. I got two more matches to ask you about. September 19th, your tag team partners, this time with Rocky Johnson. And you guys are in a tag team match with two guys that. I mean, you talked about Madison Square Garden earlier. These guys for the previous two years have been the tag team in Madison Square Garden in New York. You're against the Valiant brothers. [01:05:13] Speaker A: I wrestled them here in Georgia. [01:05:15] Speaker C: Do you remember that match? You and Rocky Johnson against the Valiants? [01:05:18] Speaker A: So Rocky, listen to this. [01:05:20] Speaker C: You guys went over. [01:05:22] Speaker A: Listen to this. Rocky flew in from Tampa. He gets to the kill. He said, my bag wasn't on the plane. I said, rocky, how long you been in the business? I've been in business four or five years. I said, how long you been in the business? Whatever, 10, 12, whatever. I said, you're coming from Tampa to the keel here in St. Louis. I said, I've never flown anywhere, which I had without carrying my wrestling gear on the plane with me. He had no boots, he had no trunks. He had borrowed boots and trunks. I said, I hope that taught you a lesson. Where his bag was, who knows? Yeah, that's the first time I ever met him. And I said, rock, how long you been in the business? [01:06:19] Speaker D: Good. [01:06:19] Speaker A: You don't check your wrestling gear. That's your tools. [01:06:23] Speaker C: You talking about different kind of guys work, different styles or whatever. [01:06:29] Speaker A: I mean, the Valiant brothers, that was totally another story. [01:06:33] Speaker C: That wasn't a wrestling match. Right. [01:06:36] Speaker A: You know, I never understood how. What care. Not speaking of being jealous or anything, the care they took of Jimmy. He was the quietest guy in the dressing room. Never say a word. But he'd get out there and clap those hands and. And the work was horrible. Yeah, they took care of him. [01:07:04] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all of his matches, it didn't matter if he was face or heel. They were the same exact. [01:07:11] Speaker A: Dancing around, dancing around, doing the throat. You saw it and they took care of it. They used him good in Carolinas, everywhere. [01:07:22] Speaker C: But, you know, Jimmy Valley, probably over is over today. He probably go out in a high school gym. [01:07:29] Speaker A: He just quit working. He's. He's like 80s, 80, in his mid-80s, isn't he? Yeah, he just quit working. I heard. Yeah. He was a nice guy, though. Very nice guy. [01:07:44] Speaker C: Yeah. So. And. And so this must be the time, too, where Ted's gone. Did you say he was in Japan when. [01:07:54] Speaker A: Japan? [01:07:55] Speaker C: You did the shoulder injury. Yeah, to take him out. Because you're. You're teamed up with Akio Sato a couple of times and just different. Different partners while I guess you're waiting for him to get back. But you're. You're with Jesse Ventura again in Kansas City. I mean, they keep putting you and Jesse together, I guess, because they know you can take care of them. [01:08:19] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, because I've been working longer than him. But the only way you're gonna get any better is getting in the room with people better than you are. I mean, when you're coming up, that's the only way you. And listening. [01:08:32] Speaker C: Right. [01:08:34] Speaker A: But some people get it and some don't, regardless. [01:08:38] Speaker C: And I think you told me before that that Tank Patton, and even though they were heels. Tank Patton and Jesse rode with you guys, right? [01:08:47] Speaker A: They what? [01:08:48] Speaker C: They rode with you guys to town? To town. [01:08:53] Speaker A: Not all the time. A lot of tight wood with Jesse, too. They, you know, we sneak in and out and. [01:09:01] Speaker B: Sure. [01:09:02] Speaker A: But my brother had this huge, beautiful van and. [01:09:07] Speaker C: Yeah. And it can't see, you know, in. [01:09:10] Speaker A: The windows, he had a mirror that was gorgeous. They just. A tank would call the house and say, what time's the Silver Streak leaving? [01:09:19] Speaker C: Man, I tell you what, Jerry. I mean, that's. That's that's some real big legendary names that you worked with in those three months. [01:09:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I look back at it. [01:09:29] Speaker C: And, I mean, that middle part of 75 there. I mean, just think about all the guys you worked with there. [01:09:34] Speaker A: I know it was, you know, when you're doing it at the time, but I look back at my career, you know, I wrestle Luthits, Russell Luther's on Atlanta tv, and I was horrified. I'd only been in the business less than a year and I'm wrestling Luther's, you know, I mean, and I knew who he was when it was over. I mean, he don't play out there. He's a tough son of a gun, you know. Then I wrestled o', Connor, just a lot of the guys had been world champion, you know, and just look back and say, my gosh, you know, I've. I've been blessed. I've been more than. And have met you. You know, you're such a knowledgeable person at this and you're a great interviewer and a great host. [01:10:19] Speaker C: Man, I wouldn't take any. I wouldn't take anything for our relationship. [01:10:23] Speaker A: And it's. I don't know if a lot of guys feel the way I do. To me, it's an honor for you wanting me to be on your show. [01:10:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:10:31] Speaker A: Of all the people you've had. I mean, it's an honor to me and I want you to know that. [01:10:35] Speaker C: No, I appreciate that. [01:10:36] Speaker A: And I mean that. [01:10:37] Speaker C: I appreciate you taking the time to do it. I always. I'm fascinated. I love to hear about, you know, these days, and I love to hear about your career and your matches and all these different people you worked with and everything. It's just fabulous. I. I appreciate you taking the time. You could be doing anything else besides talking to me, but I'd rather be. [01:10:58] Speaker A: Doing this than anything. It's not an ego thing. It's just to maybe pass on what I did to somebody else is listening and maybe saw me somewhere. [01:11:09] Speaker C: I guarantee you people are. We got great feedback from our last one and we're going to have great feedback from this. [01:11:16] Speaker A: Well, I hope so, because, you know, a lot of times guys think they're bigger than the business, right? They, you know, the business can't do without me. But I always took time to sign any autograph anybody asked me for because every now and then I might. Somebody might ask me this far and few between. Between now, but without the wrestling fans, we were nothing. That's right, we were nothing. [01:11:44] Speaker C: And without our listeners, we're nothing. On this show. [01:11:47] Speaker A: Same. Same here, you know, and I hope I'm. I try to be. I'm not trying to be. I'm as truth, truth, truthful as I can be. There's never been any BS in any of my stories that any. Because you. Anybody go look anything up, I say, and I just hope that they appreciate that. Yeah. I don't come on here and say, you know, I was the greatest thing, you know, put on a pair of trunks and tights. I wasn't. But I. I tried to do my part. I tried to carry my weight, and I think I did, you know? [01:12:19] Speaker C: You did, man. Well, I appreciate you. I can't wait for you to come back, because when you come back, we're going to get into October, November, December, and that's when. That's when we're going to get the Outlaws. Dutch Mantel and Bass going to be coming in. So I can't. I can't wait to talk about that. You and Ted against the. The Texas Outlaws. So we'll. [01:12:40] Speaker A: We'll do it. [01:12:40] Speaker C: We'll get that next time. All right, Jerry, thank you so much, man. [01:12:43] Speaker A: Good night. Thanks to all the fans. [01:12:46] Speaker C: Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Jerry Oates as much as I enjoyed having it with him. I love Jerry. We talk a lot. Several times a week. A lot of times. And he's just got so many wonderful and fantastic stories. I can't wait to share them all with you as Jerry is a regular contributor here on the podcast. Well, as you can see, if you're watching the podcast this week, I'm here at the Richards Ranch. I'm in the middle of this transition. I moved. I'd lived in Missouri for 32 years. 33 years. 33 years. I can't even remember. It was so long. I actually passed the amount of time that I lived in Kentucky. I grew up in Kentucky, and I lived there for the first 30 years of my life. Then I moved to Missouri, and I lived there for 33 years. 32 year 30. Somewhere around in there. But anyway, I've been transitioning and moving back to Kentucky. I bought a little piece of property that is adjacent to my mom's place and the horse ranch that I grew up on. And so my mom is getting a little bit up in years, and I want to try to make sure she can live in her house for the rest of her life. So I bought a little ranch next door to hers. We're here at the Richards Ranch, and you can see I've taken this old house that I think was built in 1953. I think I saw in the the property papers when I bought the place and I've been remodeling it all year long this year and we're still in a stage you can actually see a little bit behind me. If you're watching this week, you can see my podcast studio is being built back there that I'll be working in my office, my wrestling room, podcast studio, all that great stuff. So I'm actually sitting in the kitchen right now in a makeshift place, place where I can do the podcast. But so I appreciate you watching and listening and being a part of our show every single week. I always get great comments and feedback from everybody. You just send me the most wonderful notes about our program and I really do do appreciate that. And I appreciate you hanging with me during this transition that I'm going through right now, I tell you, trying to keep up with my regular business and doing the Time Tunnel and writing the books and writing the posts and all that. I mean, it's a lot, but I'm having the time of my life. I really am. And I really appreciate your notes, your support, your subscriptions to the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel on substack. Tony richards4substack.com when you subscribe to my daily Chronicle History newsletter and you subscribe and become a premium subscriber for just $5 a month or $50 a year, you help support the pro wrestling research that I do. And don't let anybody fool you, we do put a little bit of money into doing all this digging and research and all of this work to uncover and document the history of pro wrestling. And every time you become a subscriber, you help support that, not only financially, which we pour it back into more tools and more research, information, stuff so that we can do this work. But not only that, but it encourages me psychologically to keep going and keep doing what we're doing. And you obviously like what we're doing and we're doing a lot here at the Time Tunnel. So thank you so much for it. Let's get into the second half of our show now and I've got the second guest who he's been in the Central States territory a lot. He was also in the Florida territory. He was also in Mid south for Bill Watts. And that's Mike George, who grew up in St. Joseph, Missouri, and we're going to talk to him about the first half of his career in 1975. Mike's got some great stories to share and it's just A fantastic visit. I'm so glad you're going to be able to be a part of the conversation. And let's go to that right now, my talk with Mike George. [01:16:59] Speaker D: Hello again, everybody. Welcome to another edition of Personalities, Territories, towns and buildings. I'm Tony Richards and tonight I'm joined by one of the guys from Missouri. He is a legend from the St. Joseph area. Worked in Florida, he worked in Mid south, he worked there for Watts, he worked in Kansas City territory is kind of what we're going to talk about tonight. But joining me from his home is Mike George. Hey, Mike. How you doing, man? [01:17:27] Speaker B: Oh, doing fine, doing fine. [01:17:30] Speaker D: I appreciate you making time for. To come on and talk to me about your career. [01:17:36] Speaker B: That's. That's okay with me. [01:17:39] Speaker D: You can. I. You and I have been joking back and forth about how you got to remember 50 years ago and you've been hitting ahead a time or two. [01:17:47] Speaker B: Oh, just a few. Hit that wall a couple times, you know. [01:17:53] Speaker D: You bet. Hey man, I really appreciate it. How'd you get in the wrestling business? [01:17:59] Speaker B: I. The St. Joe paper had an article come out saying Ed Wiskoski was gonna get into wrestling. I said, well, Kit, I went to school with him. I know I can. Yeah. Well, I said, I went and talked to Gus Carson and Gus, Gus talked to me and he says, well, I said. I said. And then he said, well, Ed was gotten back car accident and that he may never walk again. He took out his spleen and his legs, one leg was broken stuff. And I got a hold of it and I talked to him and I said, ed, you want to start working out with me? And he said, yeah, okay. So him and me used to go up there and we'd work out at the old auditorium in St. Joe. And I got him back working out, lifting weights and everything else. I was, I was glad to see him. He was walk without a cane and everything else. [01:18:59] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, he was like he was laid up for a long time. [01:19:03] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I. He came out of it, though. He came out of it. What. [01:19:08] Speaker D: What's the deal in Missouri with car accidents, man? I mean. [01:19:12] Speaker B: Oh, I don't know. It happens all over. Well, yeah, with. [01:19:20] Speaker D: Harley was in a bad one. Orville Brown was in one. [01:19:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:25] Speaker D: Ended his career. Almost ended Harley's life. [01:19:28] Speaker B: Yeah, we all drive too fast. [01:19:30] Speaker D: Yeah. There's. There's legendary stories about Harley's driving. [01:19:34] Speaker B: Oh, God. I've been with him on one of those trips, St. Joe to Waterloo, Iowa. Quite experienced on the, on the wrong side of the road, you Might say passing them. [01:19:46] Speaker D: You know, by the time this, by the time this comes out and comes on the air, I will have been to Waterloo, Iowa. But tell me about that. Can you remember about one of those trips to Waterloo? [01:19:59] Speaker B: Oh, just long. We'd go that night after TV in St. Joe, it was about 10 o' clock and then from there we'd leave from there and sometimes drive all the way up to Waterloo and you know, try to rest and everything else. I'd. With most time it was riding with Ronnie Edson and me made the trip a lot. Yeah, he's an old timer. Yeah. Too bad. He was a nice guy too. Cigars and drink his beer and eat his tater chips. [01:20:32] Speaker D: Well, man, breakfast of champions. [01:20:34] Speaker B: Oh yeah, back then it was. [01:20:37] Speaker D: Well, as. As 74 is coming down, the last three months of 74 and the first part of 75, your tag team partners with a guest that I have on here very frequently and it's a good friend of mine, Jerry Oates. You remember tagging up with Jerry? [01:20:52] Speaker B: Oh, many times, yeah. Yeah. [01:20:55] Speaker D: How'd you meet Jerry? [01:20:58] Speaker B: First time was in 72 down. And I went to Atlanta, Georgia and that's when I started and he was there and he was, you know, he was the young whippersnapper. But he had been in business for a little while and I never got to work with him there. But he just kind of told me one time, he said, I think gotta quit. I think he was probably right, but I said, no, I'm gonna try. [01:21:31] Speaker D: Yeah. So he advised you to. To get out, huh? [01:21:34] Speaker B: Yeah, he says, I think you gotta get out. Yeah, that was really rough. I shouldn't even been on a road. But then I told Gus I knew what I was doing. No, I didn't know what I was doing. It was a learning experience. Then when I went to Florida, things changed. Things changed for my good. [01:21:53] Speaker D: Yeah, you got. So you started hooking up there with the Louis to let, right. [01:21:59] Speaker B: Yeah, he was the booker down there. Yeah. And I'd made trips with. With Mike and all that down there too. Mike Graham. Yeah, I had a good time down there. Yeah, that was the first starting. Yeah. [01:22:14] Speaker D: So you guys are in the biggest feud of 74 and the first part of 75. You're with a. A couple of mast guys that are. Some of the. They're in the top mass tag teams for sure. But some of the best tag teams of all time, the Interns with Dr. Ken Ramey. What do you remember about that? [01:22:34] Speaker B: Oh, I remember one time in Kansas City, they, they we Had a match and they cut my hair. And the next week I couldn't get in back with the match with them, but they put Raimi in a cage on the. On the stage up there in Kansas City, and their match was going on. He's in that cage. I knocked the cage over. I was doing high pulls with that cage and him in it. Oh, man, he was scared half to death, which, you know, he didn't think I was that strong, but I whipping him up, doing high pulls. [01:23:15] Speaker D: Goodness. [01:23:17] Speaker B: Floor. Oh, yeah, yeah. [01:23:19] Speaker D: What was Dr. Ramey like away from the matches? [01:23:22] Speaker B: Oh, he's a nice guy. Very, very knowledgeable. He. He helped me out too, though. Just different times later on in my life too, though, down in Louisiana too. He was a nice guy, you know, he. He was always. He got out of the business, so later on. But yeah, I still saw him down there in Shreveport and everything else. [01:23:43] Speaker D: He doesn't get the credit that I think he should get as one of the best managers of all time. [01:23:50] Speaker B: He had a lot of heat. People hated him with passion. [01:23:53] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:23:54] Speaker B: What he. [01:23:55] Speaker D: What do you do to get heat so much? [01:23:57] Speaker B: Just being Ken Ramey, Just the way he looked, he just like, you know, like a rat, almost like, you know, that type of. But he was well groomed and everything else, but he just. The people just despised him. [01:24:13] Speaker D: He just had one of those things. [01:24:15] Speaker B: Yeah, Lucky man. [01:24:18] Speaker D: Just one of those. Just one of those things that affected crowds. [01:24:22] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. That's what. That's what you want. [01:24:24] Speaker D: Do you remember. Do you remember one of the worst nights where the crowd got a little bit out of hand with him, Stirred them up. [01:24:33] Speaker B: Oh, probably the night that cut my hair down there. [01:24:37] Speaker D: Yeah. What town was that, Andy? [01:24:40] Speaker B: I was in Kansas City. Down here, Kansas, at Memorial Hall. [01:24:44] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:24:46] Speaker B: That's not far from where I work at right now, too. [01:24:52] Speaker D: You had a lot of matches in there? [01:24:54] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. A lot of. A lot of times they put me up there when I first started. I'd have a match in there with Omar Atlas or somebody like that, you know, just. We had a baby face match. We had great matches, though. And just boom, boom, boom. He was. He was a good amateur. Excellent amateur. And it was fun to work with. [01:25:17] Speaker D: You guys had some six man matches in January and February with the Internet. And you guys had two different partners. One was Haystacks Calhoun. You remember, Big Haystacks? [01:25:29] Speaker B: No, I don't remember that one. Shame on me. You think I ought to, but I don't remember it. [01:25:35] Speaker D: Well, the other guy that was in there with you in a six, man was Rufus R. Jones. [01:25:40] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, Rufus. He was a character. He was. I think Dusty Road copied his gimmick. [01:25:50] Speaker D: I think. I think. I think Rufus is still over in Missouri. [01:25:53] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, he was. He was. He was. Spent a lot of time here, but they love to come and watch him. I was loved to come to watch him. [01:26:03] Speaker D: You tagged up with the Haystacks quite a few times. [01:26:06] Speaker B: I might have down there in Price the day, probably. [01:26:11] Speaker D: Yeah. Cedar Rapids, St. Joseph. One time. Let's see, Des Moines. There was a couple. Couple times. [01:26:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Jerry and me were a lot of times. Des Moines. It's kind of sad. They put me and they did. Jerry's brother, you know, Ted, he was just. He was just as good as Jerry, but they just didn't use him as much. [01:26:42] Speaker D: Yeah, that. That. Jerry told me that on a show not long ago that, that Ted was. Was not very happy when he got there. He found out he wasn't going to be tag team partners with Jerry. [01:26:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:53] Speaker D: And he said he had to have a talk with him. [01:26:56] Speaker B: Yeah, he wasn't very happy about that. I could. I could tell he didn't like me that well because of that probably. Yeah, that was not my. Not my deal. I was happy to have anybody. [01:27:08] Speaker D: Yeah, well, they put you guys over as the champions, you know, so they were. They were working the program with the interns. There wasn't really any reason to change it. [01:27:18] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true. That's true. [01:27:20] Speaker D: The other thing here in February, there's a young guy, it might have been his first time in the business. He might have been a rookie here. I know it's around this time is Bobby Jaggers. [01:27:33] Speaker B: Oh, God, man. Man. With. They could talk, you know, if it was all true or not, but he sure could. Could talk. [01:27:40] Speaker D: Yeah. I think Harley. Harley brought him in the business, I think was it. [01:27:46] Speaker B: I didn't know who did, but he was. He was a. He was a heck of a talker. And him and Jerry Brown were quite a pair together too, though. Well, Jerry was with quite a few people down there though, but. Yeah, and Jeremy, we are. Oats and me work down in Louisiana too, or Oklahoma City that way and Tulsa and that down there too. We teamed up again. [01:28:12] Speaker D: You got some singles matches for the Central States title in February and in early March with a guy who has been in the Kansas City territory for years, Bulldog Bob Brown. [01:28:25] Speaker B: Oh, God. Yeah. More than I could even think. [01:28:31] Speaker D: What was it, what was it like to be in the ring with the Bulldog? [01:28:35] Speaker B: Oh, it wasn't bad till he did fly a marrow on you, even sit you right up and kick in that back so hard you felt like your teeth gonna fall out. Of course, I'd get him back in there when I'd make him in the corner right there and I'd catch him with those forearms, they just go. He'd go, oh, no. I enjoyed that so much. You slam him, he'd bounce right up so many. He'd bounce. He'd bounce back to his feet almost. After you slammed him. Oh, yeah, he could take a heck of a bump. His body was built for that. Yeah, I had a lot of matches with him in St. Joe and all over the place, so. But yeah, I had him when. Basically when the. I turned to a heel and he was the baby face. I had a couple times with him. The fans got more behind him than they would. They were trying to protect him. [01:29:30] Speaker D: Yeah, he was there a long time. [01:29:32] Speaker B: Oh, a long time. Yeah, he was over. He spit on the people and Geiger would chew him out. And he said, I didn't do that. [01:29:43] Speaker D: St. Joseph is a legendary town for wrestling. It probably doesn't get the credit, not like a St. Louis or Kansas City, but I mean, St. Joseph has got a long, long, long history of wrestling. What was it like in St. Joe back then? [01:29:58] Speaker B: Gus had his own little office there, downtown St. Joe, and made people come by and see him and talk to him and everything else. He'd be glad to talk to me, sit him down and talk to him for long times. He was. He was a nice guy. He really. He'd sit there and talk to you and come up with all kinds of different deals. He'd have his pipe. He'd be smoking that pipe, or not really smoking, just chewing on it, you might say. And sometimes you had to listen real close because they Greek accent on him. But yeah, he was a nice, nice old man. I enjoyed him. I really did. I see him go, do you remember. [01:30:38] Speaker D: Much about your conversations with him? Like what you'd talk about or. [01:30:41] Speaker B: Oh, he asked me a couple. Do you think you're ready to. To go on the road? And I said, oh, yeah, sure. Well, I wouldn't close, you know, but it. But he asked when he sent me to Atlanta, and then I remember I was down there with. In Florida at the time, and I got a call from. He want to know if I would want to come back up into Kansas City again. And that's when, you know, that's when Harley was doing the book and Harley got the title and all that I said, yeah, I'll come back up. I. I packed my. I had a van then I had my Dots and Z and I towed my Dots and Z and the family all the way back up to from where we left Tampa. But I left that night. I'd been in, in Miami, come back up, who picked everything up, got it in the van. We drove all the way up from doing 80 degrees up to snowstorm going through St. Louis back. So what did I do? Why did I go back? [01:31:43] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:31:44] Speaker B: Yeah. But it was he. I was glad he was glad to see me come back. [01:31:49] Speaker D: He. He ran. He. I mean, he was the promoter in Iowa too, right? Was he. Did he. Was he the promoter in Kansas City. [01:31:56] Speaker B: Or he go there for the deals? But Gaga was most of it. Gaggle and Pat and Harley. Yeah, and Geigel always. I mean Gus is always there on a. He go in Thursdays and into the office down there, sitting there and talk with Geigel and they come up with things, you know. Yeah, they always did. Every Thursday was. It was religious deal to do that. [01:32:25] Speaker D: Could you tell what kind of relationship that they all had with Munchnick in St. Louis? [01:32:33] Speaker B: That I don't know. Because if you were a Gus boy, you didn't make can St. Louis very often. You made it a couple times. But I think they were glad to get him gone and, and get into it. And when they bought him out and stuff, it was like, you know, Harley and Pat. Pat loved the tv. He loved the be in charge of that TV down there. And he did all the finishes basically in, in St. Louis, he. He'd tell you what's going off, this is who you're working with and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, yeah, he was. [01:33:11] Speaker D: Did you, did you work St. Louis very much? [01:33:14] Speaker B: Oh, a few times. Yeah. We had, we had tag matches we had to deal with. One time it was Jerry, Sato and myself and we were in a six man tag against the. The boys, the Texas boys, the Von Erichs. [01:33:35] Speaker D: Oh, the Von Erichs. [01:33:36] Speaker B: We had all three of them in there and one of them that one time, the one without the boots, the one that wearing those shoes. Yeah, he did something, Kevin. He did something. He went up in the air and you know, for an elbow drop and all of a sudden he smashed right into poor Sato's face. We got back dressing. Wonder what happened. He said the wind blew. I swear to God, that's what he did. Oh, did he. Did Jerry tell you about his deal with the one match he had with Moose Morowski? [01:34:13] Speaker D: No, he didn't. [01:34:14] Speaker B: Oh my. You got to. You've got to get him on that one. He told me about it. I didn't get to see it, but it was a classic. [01:34:24] Speaker D: I'm. [01:34:25] Speaker B: I'm gonna write and all that. Good. [01:34:28] Speaker D: Yeah, I'm gonna write it down. I'm gonna ask about it. [01:34:31] Speaker B: Oh yeah, I asked him about you. That's a good one. [01:34:34] Speaker D: Didn't you tell me the other day when we were just talking that you see a Kiyosato quite a bit? [01:34:39] Speaker B: Yes, yes, I do. Every. Betty's just doing. Not real well, but she's. She's okay. He. She doesn't want to go any place. And yeah, he kind of takes tasty. Takes good care of her. They got two beautiful girls. [01:34:58] Speaker D: For those. For those of you who may not realize, Kiyosato was married to Becky or Betty Nikolai. Yeah, and Betty Nikolai was a long time female wrestler all over the country. She worked quite a bit, was the Central States women's champion and a pretty good wrestler, huh? [01:35:18] Speaker B: Oh, yes, yes, she was. She was a stout old lady. Not. She wasn't that old. She was good looking lady. [01:35:24] Speaker D: Yeah, she worked with Gene Antone a lot. [01:35:26] Speaker B: Oh, a whole bunch. Yeah, whole bunch. They'd bring a few different ones in every once in a while. [01:35:32] Speaker D: You. So your intern program is kind of running its course and they're pairing you up with another tag team, Yasu Fuji and Okisha Kina. [01:35:43] Speaker B: Oh, God, yeah, yeah, yeah, they. They're pretty good. Damn. But I got. I guess I got carried away one time down in this today and we were in a tag match and somehow I went in there and I nailed him right in the eye or he did something all sudden, before I knew it, I. Before I got turned around in the corner, I had a black eye. [01:36:06] Speaker D: Oh no. [01:36:07] Speaker B: Payback was hell, let's put that way. Yeah, but. [01:36:11] Speaker D: Yeah, Jerry said that every now and then Okie would get a little lazy with you in the ring. [01:36:17] Speaker B: Oh yeah, but that's normal. Yeah, but. Yeah, but. Yeah, but he was. There was. They were something else to be with though. Something else. There was. There was another one there too. I can't remember. [01:36:35] Speaker D: We might. We might come across it. But another tag team is a brother tag team from Canada. The Cormier brothers, Tommy and Terry Martin. [01:36:44] Speaker B: Yeah, they were. They were here when I very just started. I used to go up there and I'd watch them too. They were. They were good tag team partners up there and they were just about time I started. They had left. So I get a chance really to meet at all, really. They were. They were on their way out. They had a couple different ones that left. Yeah. [01:37:08] Speaker D: Then on. Then in April, you took a tour of Japan to work for Giant Baba. [01:37:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that was good as the first. I was. My first one, I think the first night. [01:37:22] Speaker D: The first night you worked with Dick Buyer, the Destroyer. [01:37:26] Speaker B: Oh, I was outside show. Yeah. Yeah. I was afraid. Getting stretched out there a little bit. I heard stories about him, but. No. Had a great match with him, though. I put him over. [01:37:40] Speaker D: Yeah, well, he was a legend there at all. [01:37:42] Speaker B: Yeah, he was. He could wrestle. There's no doubt about that. You know, they put me with all kinds of different people up here. I'd wrestle them. There's no doubt about that. Had a little bit of knowledge. [01:37:55] Speaker D: They put you in a. They put you in a tag team match, and your partner was Mark Lewin, and you guys had a match with Dick Meyer and Samson Kutsuwada. [01:38:07] Speaker B: I don't remember that. I remember. I remember one with. Yeah, I'm thinking about this one of them. I was a tag partner with. [01:38:20] Speaker D: Gene Kaniski. [01:38:22] Speaker B: That and Killer. What? No, my mind's going right now. There was a champion up there in New York. All over. [01:38:35] Speaker D: You were partners with Killer Kowalski and Dick the Bruiser? [01:38:39] Speaker B: Yeah, there was another one, too. Dick. He loved his beard, too. No, there was another one. What was the champion up there in New York there? Did everybody. [01:38:53] Speaker D: Oh, Hulk Hogan. [01:38:55] Speaker B: No, no, before. Before him. The one, everybody. [01:38:58] Speaker A: No, no, no. [01:38:59] Speaker B: I'm talking about older guys. [01:39:00] Speaker D: Superstar Billy Graham, Bruno Sammerthe. [01:39:02] Speaker B: I'm going way back. I'm going back farther than that. [01:39:06] Speaker D: Bruno Sammartino. [01:39:07] Speaker B: Yes, yes. I was tagged with him in there one time. They put me in different deals. I enjoy. We had a good time. He was. He was very impressive. He's strong guy. I remember him later on in time. He was over there and he was. Had a broken finger, and he was still benching 400 back then. [01:39:27] Speaker D: You were in a couple of tag team matches with Kinisky, and you guys were in there with Young Guy. I think it was his rookie year. Jumbo Ceruta. [01:39:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We always, always. I liked working with those guys. They were. They had the. Not they. You better be in shape or they're gonna eat your lunch that way. I think it's still that way over there, which is good people over there. I didn't. I didn't understand why they applauded. You know, you. You wanted them to hear a scholar scream, but they didn't. They plotted. If they were happy you know. Right. It was like, first time I. That happened, I said, what's going off? It's not right. [01:40:09] Speaker D: Well, you were. Well, yeah. And you were American, so you were automatically a heel. [01:40:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Oh, they treated me like. I wasn't, though. They. They were half. They were. They liked me over there. [01:40:22] Speaker D: Yeah, they really did. [01:40:23] Speaker B: I mean, I had one guy after a match, I come out, he was taking care of the. The building. He was their supervisor. Not supervisor, but the maintenance guy. He took me back there where he stayed at, and he gave me a drink of sake with him. I talked with him and everything else. Real nice guy. He was real happy. Nice to meet you and everything else. I remember him real well. The first. That was my first tour over there, too. [01:40:50] Speaker D: What. What was it like with Kaniski? [01:40:54] Speaker B: He was different. Yeah, he was. [01:40:59] Speaker D: He's pretty rugged, Gene. [01:41:01] Speaker B: We called him. We called him dad. There's Bob Orton Jr. And I think it was Steve Kern was there at the same time. [01:41:13] Speaker D: Yeah. Those guys were in the first or second year of their career, too. [01:41:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. All of us were right there. Yeah, it was. That was an experience where there was a bunch of young guys we had. We just kind of sit and watch and learn. Yeah, that was. That was the thing to do. You didn't talk back to them. They were like. They were the. They were superstars, basically, back then. They. To my book, they still are. [01:41:38] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. I see your match with. Where your tag team partners. I see that match with Bruno. Now, you guys were. It was on May 7, and you were against Giant Baba and Samson Kutsuwada. You and Bruno. [01:41:52] Speaker B: God, you got it. You got the list. [01:41:55] Speaker D: I do, yeah. [01:41:57] Speaker B: I remember that. I remember the match was the. Gene Kiniski. Yeah. He used to take and throw people in the rope or do something. He'd slide down. And I asked him afterwards, what, why are you doing that? He said, I'm just following through. I just still didn't understand that one. [01:42:17] Speaker D: Yeah, that. That tech. That tag match you were where you were partners with Bruno, that was like the. I think it was this next to last match on the tour. You had two. Two more days after that. But it was close to the end. [01:42:31] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah, I remember. I remember being there with him. I don't remember much about the match, but I remember he was impressive. [01:42:40] Speaker D: That was. That was the third. That was the third annual Champions Carnival Tournament. [01:42:46] Speaker B: Is that what it was? I wish I'd get more of this stuff about it. I wish. [01:42:51] Speaker D: Yeah, well, anytime you want something, man, just let me know. [01:42:54] Speaker B: I'll. [01:42:54] Speaker D: I'll get it to you. [01:42:55] Speaker B: I appreciate it. [01:42:57] Speaker D: You come back and you get back in matches with the interns again. This time, though, you've got Bob Geigel. You teamed up with Bob Geigel a time or two. What was. Yeah, what was? Jerry talks in glowing Terms. I mean, he really, really loves Bob Geigel. What do you think about him? [01:43:15] Speaker B: Oh, Bob. Bob was a hell of an amateur. I enjoyed Bob. I'll tell you a story about him later on when we were working out there at the Woodlands, the dog track and horse track. [01:43:28] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:43:28] Speaker B: A guy came up to him. Geigo's maybe about 80 years old then, and guys poking him in the chest and Geiger says, don't do that, and trying to hold a conversation and be halfway normal with them. Well, the guy kept doing it. Goggle headlock. And took him over in a big flying headlock all the way to the ground to win. The guy told you not to do that. Gaggle had some good stuff. I mean, he was. But he was. He was a very impressive man for his age. Still had abs on him and everything else. He was something else. He really strong. My God, he had a grip on him. Was unreal. He was impressive. [01:44:15] Speaker D: He got. He got toughened up there in Texas. He was out there in the. In Amarillo and West Texas in the 50s and the early 60s before he came back to Kansas City. And. Yeah, that was a tough territory to work. [01:44:29] Speaker B: You better be. You better be in shape or they abused you. Yeah, sure. [01:44:34] Speaker D: What about Lord Alfred Hayes? [01:44:36] Speaker B: Oh, he was a joy. He was a joy to work with. And Roger Kirby. Both of them are fantastic. Them together, and they wore their pink outfits. My God, people just. And then Herbie Kirby. I do stuff and everything I want to say we come up with an idea. I slide between his legs. He never laughed so hard in his whole life. And now I know the need to take the back bump. And I'd pin him 1, 2, 3. It just. Could. It just. Perfect, though. Perfect. I know. [01:45:10] Speaker D: I know. Kirby was a favorite of Harley's. [01:45:12] Speaker C: He. [01:45:12] Speaker D: He liked Roger. [01:45:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Roger went down to Florida, too, when I left, and up here. And Omar did. Omar and me worked down there in Tampa. I don't know how many times in a row against Kirby and. God, there we go. There goes the mind again. Don't get old. He ended up being a. Like a. What do you want to call? Manager for the. The. The. The four horse. [01:45:53] Speaker D: Oh, J.J. dillon. [01:45:55] Speaker B: Yeah. J.J. dylan. Yeah, we were. They were tagged up together and. And we worked with him I don't know how many times in Tampa. Have great matches down there at Hoddle building, the armory. [01:46:06] Speaker A: Oh my. [01:46:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Then all of a sudden we were down in Down. And I forget where we went after that. The next. The next town. So I mean after we finished up there for a while, then not long after that, basically I was there like five or six months or something like that and then come back home. [01:46:22] Speaker D: Yeah. It's kind of unfortunate that. I mean people saw most of JJ's career as a manager and there's just not a lot of videotape out there of him. But in the 70s, man, he could work, huh? [01:46:34] Speaker B: Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. We had great matches. I mean. Yeah. With. With Omar. I mean, my God, Omar was just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. It's hard stopping, but Kirby just having a hell of time. [01:46:49] Speaker D: There's another guy who's in like. He's been in the business like 30 days and he's working in Kansas City here in May of 75. And he goes on to be known as the Body Jesse Ventura. [01:47:04] Speaker B: Oh yeah. I came back to the territory and Jesse was here and it seemed like he rode with me up to Des Moines. It. And then he went home. He said, I'm. I'm leaving. I just couldn't. He wrote me up and then he left. [01:47:20] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. Jerry said that he. He was broke, you know, all the time and he. He rode with them a lot and all. But he had a rough start in the business. He had a rough start in the business. But he said it was a nice guy. [01:47:32] Speaker B: Nice guy? Hell yeah. Yeah. That I met him again out there and with. Jerry was out there too, in, In Oregon, out there in Portland. [01:47:43] Speaker D: That's when Jesse. That's when Jesse kind of broke through. Right? [01:47:47] Speaker B: Yeah. He could talk, he could. He could just rattle in. Him and. And Ed were together out there a lot and they just have a great time. The. The best time is out there. I know they. Jerry told the best story about they. We come back in the trips and there were Cos row for Sari the sheik. He'd be, you know, parked his car, rode with somebody and he wouldn't lock it. Well, they. They could open his car up, take beer and pour it in his seat. So he'd have to sit there and that things sit up all the way edge of it and drive home at night. They used to do that to him, but nobody really liked him. We had. It was great up. But he was a good guy really deep down. Cosmro I remember when I first started down there, and when I saw him in Louisiana, he'd come in. He left the. The ganya up there and came down. Was working down there. We'd look at him and just like, he'd show up at towns that he wasn't booked, but he'd show up trying to get booked. Yeah, and. But. But he was. He had his clubs. I. I managed the clubs, but not too good, but I tried. I did it. Jerry do things with me. He. He abused me times. Jerry Oates. We did an interview on Shreveport tv, and we're talking about. They want to say, how about you? How you guys work out? And we did a few things, sat on my back, so I had to do push ups. He told me, he says. He says, I would have never done that. He said I couldn't do it, but I. I was pretty strong, all right. I had my. I don't know, just natural, but it. But I was doing push ups with him on my back. I remember that. [01:49:40] Speaker D: Toward the, Toward the end of May, May 26 in 75, in Wichita, Kansas, you've got a match for the international heavyweight title. And the champion is Cyclone Negro. You remember Cyclone. [01:49:55] Speaker B: Yes, but I don't remember the match. I remember Cyclone, but I don't remember him there. [01:50:03] Speaker D: Yeah, he. He. He went around when he won that international title, he went around and traveled with it to several territories. And he. He was in Kansas City here for, I don't know, two weeks maybe. [01:50:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I met him again. They basically down in Florida again. That's. That's when. After I left down there. Omar and him were tied up together down there. [01:50:27] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:50:27] Speaker B: Yeah. So different things right there in my mind. [01:50:32] Speaker D: Yeah, that's all right. So the schedule is, you know, Mondays is either Wichita or Topeka. You kind of rotate every other Monday. [01:50:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:50:43] Speaker D: Tuesday night you mentioned Sedalia a couple times. [01:50:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Dan Little Bear told. Guy told Gus, he says, I like to buy this town. Gus is good. Do you want to. You want to book this down or else? He says, no, I want to close this blank, blank down. Oh, he was serious. If it was in a town you got your experience and people didn't care what you were doing. They were just like their family night. Yeah, guys, I was one of Gusta Sounds, and in Missouri, he did Columbia, too, is one of them, I think Gus had. And. And Waterloo and Des Moines and St. Joe and stuff. He do the Cedar Rapids, too, was one of the towns up there. [01:51:28] Speaker D: Yeah. You guys ran that convention hall there in Sedalia. Every Tuesday. [01:51:33] Speaker B: Oh yeah, do our TV interview. We do our radio interviews for almost two hours. We go to this place radio station, we do interviews there. They have us all there. We have to be there about three, three hours early to do that. Oh yeah, everybody hated that with a passion then. [01:51:52] Speaker D: Thursday nights were Kansas City and Friday night. Friday nights were St. Joe. Saturday, Saturday was Waterloo, Quincy, Fort Scott. Those kind of towns. [01:52:05] Speaker B: Yeah, we used to call Geigels at some of his towns. We'd go on safari out there. Way out there. Goodland, Kansas, Kobe, Kansas, you know. Oh, they were good towns, but they're. But way out there they weren't. They were different type people. They didn't see a lot. Yeah, they may have seen wrestling, but not much of it though. [01:52:27] Speaker D: I've been to Goodland, Kansas. It's out there on the border, man. [01:52:30] Speaker B: Oh yeah, we had some long trips. [01:52:33] Speaker D: It's out there close to Garden City and all that. [01:52:37] Speaker B: Oh yeah, that's one. That's when in Dodge City we go there too. [01:52:42] Speaker D: And oh yeah, Goodland Kansas is right on the time border. Like if you go to one end of the town, you're in one time zone, you go into the other, you lose an hour on the other end of town. [01:52:54] Speaker B: Oh my, my, that was a long trip. But it was, it was still enjoyable even. I remember making one trip back. Hey, we had to catch a ride with, with Lord Alfred Hayes. He just drive 55 mile an hour and we would. Drove back into Kansas City. Listen. But he tells stories how we should talk, how we should improve things and everything else. He. He was, he was very knowledgeable. Yeah, he was, he was fun. He could tell all kinds of good stuff. [01:53:27] Speaker D: Yeah, guys talk all the time about how that's one, one big thing that's lost in the business today is the car rides and the education that you'd get from the vets in the cars, you know? [01:53:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, you learn a lot of things. Yeah, I think it was. I think. I can't remember who was brunzella me coming back out of Wichita. Geigo was with, with Brown and Brown put the flashing light up on his dash and come up behind me. Oh my God. We got pulled over by the police. Then it was him. They pulled up aside and just laughed and they drove off. [01:54:08] Speaker D: What'd you think about Wichita as a town, wrestling town? [01:54:12] Speaker B: I think it could have been a better town. I really do. Because it had its potential. We'd see the people were great there. I mean they weren't. They were easy and they. And they Enjoyed the matches and they were fun to get. They get behind you. We had matches with Kirby in there and Alfred Hayes and my God, they were great. You know, I remember him and just. It just wish it got a better push. Just wish you got a better push. [01:54:43] Speaker D: Yeah. The Century 2 auditorium was the building. [01:54:47] Speaker B: Oh yeah, a lot of building. [01:54:48] Speaker D: Yeah. Really nice. I. I've driven by it several times but. But I mean Topeka always struggled, didn't it? [01:54:58] Speaker B: Oh yeah, yeah. But I had the time. I. I turned to heel against Bob Brown there and I had Bob Brown on the floor right there that teach me this. And as I'm pounding on Brown, some guy might come up beside me and hit me right in the mouth. I turned around and grabbed my hands into the guy, he had a wig on our afro like and I stuck my hands in it twisted that hair and I was trying to knee him after he hit me in the mouth, brushing my partial plate up and everything else. And the, the police right there says if you hit him, you nail him. He says you will never wrestle in to be again. Boy, I was trying to nail him, but I got to wrestle to be here a couple times. That's. Something like that happened in Columbia, Missouri too. Just like that at the Armory. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a good down too though. That was a hard town. [01:55:57] Speaker D: Yeah. I don't know what it is about. You would think a Midwest or a southern college town would draw, but they've all. They all have trouble drawing for wrestling. [01:56:08] Speaker B: Yeah, it's just the people didn't want to get behind. But some did, but some didn't. They were hard. I mean they were hard group of people. I used to say I used to go wrestle different places and come back, save up money to come back home, you know, back here because it. You didn't rake a lot of money around here. It was hard. Yeah, it was hard. [01:56:30] Speaker D: But you guys, you guys drew okay in the 70s, right? [01:56:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. They had some good houses, but no great ones. I mean there was no outstanding deal. But we for what. What there was and just. It's just getting. Things are starting to just change. Like I go, I mean Harley told me one time, he says if he had just been five years earlier in your life, he says, you would have been just like I was just like him, he says. I said, I appreciate that. But if he was right because things changed about that time. [01:57:07] Speaker D: Yeah. Did he ever talk about how Missouri and Kansas drew in the 60s? [01:57:14] Speaker B: No, he never did really. [01:57:16] Speaker D: I wonder, I wonder, you know, because in the south and you. You've been. You've been to Georgia, you've been to Florida, you've been to Louisiana, and you've been to Alabama. I mean, those territories drew really, really well all. All through, you know, the 60s, the 70s, and even into the 80s. [01:57:32] Speaker B: Yeah, they were. [01:57:33] Speaker D: They were great. But outside of St. Louis, in Missouri, it struggled. [01:57:39] Speaker B: Yeah, we. Now you cut down to Springfield. Springfield would draw. Springfield was a good town, but it's just this, like a dividing line somewhere in there. Because Springfield was basically. That was. [01:57:58] Speaker D: Leroy McGurk. [01:57:59] Speaker B: Leroy's. Leroy's Town, basically. [01:58:01] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:58:02] Speaker B: Took it back over again. But we do. We drew money down there. We. Oh, he had great houses. He had to watch your car out there. People demolish it. [01:58:12] Speaker D: When you worked for. When you worked for Leroy and Watts, did you work in Joplin? [01:58:17] Speaker B: Oh, yes. That was a hard town, too, though. [01:58:20] Speaker D: It was. [01:58:21] Speaker B: It was a hard town. Just something about it. I don't know what it was, but it. [01:58:26] Speaker D: And it's further. And it's further south than Springfield. [01:58:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Springville had a different type of clientele, you might say. Just different. Yeah, there's. You got the people that wanted to believe, and you got the people. There was no way in the world you're going to get them to go. [01:58:45] Speaker D: Yeah, they were just. I was always. [01:58:47] Speaker B: I was always taught, you make them believe you make things real. You may get paid, get in trouble for by the other guy you're working with, but you got to make sure that people don't see through stuff. And that's what I. I used to. With Ted Dbassey. I had him on the floor one time down in Louisiana. Down there, I'd nail him. Boy, we're on the flight. Boom, boom, boom. But that's. That was the way I was taught. Yeah, they saw through my stuff. They weren't going to. I tell you that for sure, because I was. I was stiff. I was stiff, and I enjoyed it that way. And I wanted to be treated the same way because I. When I worked with Harley, he was siff. And he'd say, hit me harder. Okay, no problem. [01:59:39] Speaker D: Well, the promoter in the booker didn't want you to kill the town. [01:59:43] Speaker B: No, that's right. That's right. Yeah. And I remember when I went to Louisiana the first time, if you didn't know how to wrestle, you were in deep trouble, because that was the thing they always. When I left Florida and went up there, they said, you better know how to do. I said, well, I do. I got the background. I can do it. And no problem. They treated me like I was, I was the new star. I was coming. [02:00:08] Speaker D: Yeah, it seemed like it. That seemed like one thing that really helped guys, too, that they didn't have an outrageous gimmick. They had to be good wrestlers, you know, they had to have a good, strong background in wrestling. And those that did, did, did really well. [02:00:25] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. Another one. I was going to tell you a story about big Texan that he died young. Mobile, Amarillo 2. Dick Murdoch. [02:00:43] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:00:44] Speaker B: Oh, funny guy. He, I made trips with him and, and I wrestled him one couple times, but the one time in Jackson, Mississippi, I'm the heel and he's the good guy. And all of a sudden I got out of the ring and I was kind of close to the right edge of the railing, and this old man came up and hit me once. I just looked at him, I said, go sit down, you know, and he, I turned around, he hit me again. I just looked around me and I said, go sit down for you get hurt. [02:01:16] Speaker D: Oh. [02:01:17] Speaker B: And then he hit me again. I was over the railing, heading by the throat, down on top of his chair, and I said, you're gonna die. The police got there and they hauled the guy out and back. Murdoch's hollering, get back in the ring. Get back in the ring. Yeah, but I, I couldn't help. But the guys, hey, made me snap. [02:01:37] Speaker D: Yeah, well, I bet the rest of the crowd backed up. [02:01:40] Speaker B: Oh, they enjoyed it. Oh, yeah. And then Murdoch beat me up pretty good. But that was, yeah, that was. I enjoyed it. Murdoch great to work with, too. [02:01:51] Speaker D: Yeah, he, he could work. [02:01:53] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. You can ask, Ask Jerry about him and Murdoch. Murdoch and Kill Carl Cox had a match. He said it. I think he said he saw it. They had a cattle prod match. [02:02:12] Speaker D: Oh, no. [02:02:12] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I'd. Liz, I'd love to seen that one in Jackson or it was in not Jackson, Mississippi, but the one before as you were coming first time you come across in the river right there going toward Jackson. Yeah, yeah. Civil War was big deal right there. [02:02:35] Speaker D: Greenville or. [02:02:36] Speaker B: No, no, no, right. [02:02:38] Speaker D: Hattiesburg. [02:02:39] Speaker B: No, not that, no, that's, that, that's too far. That's not right. A little farther. No, this is just as you crossed into getting into Mississippi. You were just. There was the town on top of the bluff. Well, that's the town where, where I think we he had that match at. And I, I would have gave anything. [02:03:02] Speaker D: Oh, I, I, I got it. Vicksburg. [02:03:04] Speaker B: Vicksburg, Mississippi. That's right. I would have gave anything to Seeing that match and with Cox, oh my God, he do some stuff that just wouldn't believe. But, but you believed. [02:03:19] Speaker D: I mean, I wonder, I wonder if they had batteries in the cattle prod. [02:03:23] Speaker B: Oh, yes, they did. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It was a real shoot. It was. I'd love to seen it. I heard stories. Jerry told me stories about it. I, I said, I wish I'd seen that one. I wish. [02:03:40] Speaker D: Murdoch loved Cox, man. He, he, oh yeah, he really worshiped he, he, well, he worked like him. It, Brain buster was Carl Cox's move. [02:03:49] Speaker B: Yeah, they, they did so good together. They just, I, I, I enjoyed watching them. I lost all the matches. I always did to see what they did and what they didn't and how people recepted it and how they, you know, if they didn't, you should. I didn't want to do that again. [02:04:09] Speaker D: Well, that's how you learn. [02:04:12] Speaker B: That's how we learned back then. We watch them. That's what I was told when in Florida when I started. Watch the matches. That's where you're gonna learn. [02:04:21] Speaker D: You remember a magnificent Zulu? [02:04:24] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. [02:04:27] Speaker D: You had some matches with him in. [02:04:29] Speaker B: 75 and yeah, he didn't know what a shower was, let's put that way. [02:04:34] Speaker D: Oh, no. [02:04:36] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Impressive. Not as precious as Mr. USA Tony Atlas. Yeah, but he was impressive. Yeah. [02:04:50] Speaker D: When, when did you guys do your television in Kansas City? [02:04:54] Speaker B: We did it on Saturday morning. We, after we'd come in there about 7:30, 8:00 clock in the morning down there on channel 41? Yeah, that was early for it. [02:05:08] Speaker D: Did you do Television in St. Joe. [02:05:10] Speaker B: Also on a Saturday night? Okay, yeah. [02:05:17] Speaker D: So you did television in Kansas City on Saturday morning? [02:05:20] Speaker B: Yeah, back then. Then, then we switched over to the live shows. They do them at the, at the arena. [02:05:27] Speaker D: I see. [02:05:28] Speaker B: I was on a Thursday. They do those though, but not all. They do park shows and stuff on it. But the tv, when we first started it was in the mornings@channel41 down in Kansas City, Missouri, right there, channel wherever 41 was. [02:05:48] Speaker D: So you, you wrapped up in the Kansas city territory on June 27 and you had a match against the guy we talked about, Akio Sato, and you guys went 15 minutes to a time limit draw and then y' all had a battle royal in the main event that Akio Sato won. [02:06:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:06:10] Speaker D: And then that was the 27th. And on the 30th, three days later, you show up in West Palm Beach, Florida. [02:06:19] Speaker B: Long trip. Yep. [02:06:22] Speaker D: Yeah. You didn't, you didn't take long in getting there. [02:06:28] Speaker B: No, no, stop by. Saw my sister in Chattanooga and spent day there and drove us away. Boy, that was rough. [02:06:39] Speaker D: Yeah. Monday night, Florida had two towns, West Palm beach and Orlando. And you worked West Palm Beach. And then the next night you were in Tampa and you were working against the guy that we just talked about, J.J. dillon. [02:06:55] Speaker B: J.J. yeah. He's still alive, isn't he? [02:06:59] Speaker D: And you went. Yeah, I just talked to him not long ago. I interviewed him. Yeah, I talked to him not long ago. [02:07:05] Speaker B: He tried to get me to go back down to Atlanta, work with. I don't know who it was, but I said, no, I'm staying up and saying, joe, shame on me. But I left. I left. I left down there in Atlanta. When my. I went down there, that's when I left Louisiana. I went there and then they had me as a special referee. And then I was. I was just. Just had a deal on TV with Oli saying I was behind him. I'd watch his back. And about a day later, my mother. My. My wife's mother had a stroke and I flew her home. And then basically I was there by myself, and me and the dog weren't getting along too well. And I told her, I. I called her up, I told her, just come on back down, we'll move back up to St. Joe. Yeah. I was getting the chance to go down there, and I had the chance and I was getting the push, and I just might say I would. The family came more important. [02:08:11] Speaker D: Yeah, well, it happens sometimes. [02:08:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that was. That was the thing that changed my, I think my whole life in the wrestling right there, right then. It changed my chance being farther up than I got. But I'm glad I did go. You go back. [02:08:32] Speaker D: Yeah, you. So that. That was July 1, 1975. And we'll. We'll come back and do another show and go through the second half when you're in Florida here. But you pinned JJ that night and Fort Homer Hesterly Armory in Tampa, Florida. [02:08:46] Speaker B: No kidding. I was getting the push. [02:08:49] Speaker D: He put you. He put you over. [02:08:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:08:52] Speaker D: I think he had just been or was, or maybe it was a non title match, but he was the first Florida television champion, too. [02:09:00] Speaker B: Oh, I didn't know that. [02:09:03] Speaker D: He might have lost it before then, but. Yeah, but. But it's still. He was a star, jj. [02:09:09] Speaker B: Yeah, they were giving me a shot. [02:09:11] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:09:12] Speaker B: And I stayed there for a while. I should have. I should have stayed there. I shouldn't have said, God, come back when Gus called me that. But that was another. Another thing. [02:09:22] Speaker D: You beat jj that Night. Then the next night, Wednesday night, Miami Beach. You beat Kirby. [02:09:28] Speaker B: That's when the thing started. Yeah. Had them together. And Omar was down there then. Yep. [02:09:34] Speaker D: Then you went to a double disqualification for the southern heavyweight title with Killer Carl Crook. [02:09:40] Speaker B: Oh, he was something else to work with. [02:09:43] Speaker D: Killer Carl. You know what he is? I don't know anything about how he was to work with. You're about to tell me. But just as far. Just as far. Just as far as far as the way a heel should look. I just love the way he looked, man. [02:09:58] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. He put the fear of God in you. Really listen. But a nice guy, but you sure can tell by way I worked with him in, in. In Kansas City up here. All of a sudden I got my back turn to hit me with a two by four. Boom. That was the match. It was over. Knock you right out. [02:10:19] Speaker A: He. [02:10:20] Speaker D: He wasn't. He wasn't German, but he played a German. But he. But he looked just evil, man. He just looked. [02:10:27] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, he was perfect. Yeah, he was down there in Louisiana. He'd come back with. With Grizzly Smith in a car and something, and I can't remember who was. Stopped the car got. He got out of the car and he walked into Shreveport. He was about 50 or 60 miles out of town. He pissed everybody off. Sorry my language, but they made him walk. He was something else. He was something else. So. [02:10:58] Speaker D: Well, we covered. We covered a lot of ground tonight, man. [02:11:02] Speaker B: No. Yeah, it's. All of. It's true too. [02:11:06] Speaker D: We covered a lot of ground. Six months in Kansas City there and tagging up with Jerry Oates. What's your favorite. What's your favorite memory of working with Jerry? [02:11:17] Speaker B: Oh, I had times with him, I think, when I was the heel and he was the baby face down in, in Shreveport, Louisiana. Had match with him in New Orleans. We had a match down there too. He enjoyed. I enjoyed working with him because I knew what he thought about me. I had to prove that. I come a long ways from. [02:11:37] Speaker D: From all I can tell. I mean, Bill Watts really loved him. Like, really like. Yeah, work like having him as a baby face. [02:11:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, he did. He did. He'd bring him back in, come in. He fly in to work with certain people and stuff back there on. In Shreveport and other towns too. He's come back and do stuff. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, he was good down there. [02:12:00] Speaker D: Well, I'll give you a little opportunity to. To rest up a little bit and I'll. [02:12:04] Speaker A: I'll. [02:12:05] Speaker D: I'll get you back on here in a little while. A month or so, and we'll do the second half of 75. [02:12:11] Speaker B: Okay. [02:12:12] Speaker D: I appreciate Mike, You've been more than generous with your time. I appreciate you spending this time with me tonight. [02:12:19] Speaker B: A lot of people don't really know about that time in my life or anything, but I enjoyed the people. I enjoyed the fans. Yeah, they were good to me. [02:12:31] Speaker D: Mike George, everybody. We'll. We'll have Mike back on here in a future show. Mike, thank you. I appreciate you, man. Have a nice night. [02:12:39] Speaker B: You, too. Take care of yourself. [02:12:42] Speaker C: Hey, everybody. Hope you enjoyed that conversation with Mike George. I know I did. Mike's a fantastic fella. And I've got some things in mind for Jerry and Mike together that I hope that we can do down the road that might be fun. They are former World Tag Team Champions for the National Wrestling alliance in the Central States territory. And, you know, I talked to Jerry in the first half of our show today. I talked to Mike in the second half. One of these days, I'm going to get those guys together and the three of us, especially the two of them, that would be a fantastic show. And we're going to work on getting that done. So a couple of things we got coming up here. We've got Terry Sullivan, who's going to be coming up here on the show, and we're going to be talking about 1975 in Detroit. And that's going to be a fascinating conversation because Terry had gone over to the opposition to the chic and was working over there in 1975. There was a fella who's kind of connected to the Dory Funk Senior work that I'm working on, the Dorie Funk Senior book. There's a character from that whole story in Amarillo that's a part of breaking away and starting a promotion to run against the Sheik in Detroit. Terry Sullivan had been part of the Sheik's territory, and he went over to work opposition. So that's going to be a great conversation. He's going to be coming up. I also have Dave Dynasty. Dave Dynasty has his own podcast, and he primarily focuses on the Dick the Bruiser promotion, the WWA in Indianapolis. And we just lost the great Wojo, Greg Wojahowski, who was a performer there in the WWA in the 80s and toward the end of the 80s, and we just lost Greg. He's a Hall of Famer, both amateur and pro. And I want to talk to Dave about the impact of the great Wojo. And that's coming up on our show here very, very soon. Thank you. I appreciate you very, very much for listening and watching and sending the great feedback. We got all our regular guests that are coming back pretty soon. We're going to have the fantastic Howard Baum on the show, and we're going to talk about Florida in 1975. We got Steve Generelli coming back. He's going to be talking about the WWWF in the fall of 75 and a whole bunch of other stuff right here on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. Thank you so much. I appreciate you, and I'll see you back here again next week. Thanks for tuning in to the Pro. [02:15:18] Speaker B: Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. [02:15:20] Speaker A: Tune in for another great episode next week, interviewing wrestlers, referees and media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. Be sure to follow us on Facebook at Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. We'll release a new episode soon. Don't you dare miss it.